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Author Topic: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now  (Read 1677 times)

Offline kathyp

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #100 on: August 08, 2017, 12:15:35 pm »
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it could be said that regulation is a cost of the free market and not a bad thing.

there are some regulations that are needed.  We don't want industry dumping heavy metal into our water.  On the other hand, the additional regulations on coal mine run off were designed to cost the coal industry money and fulfill Obamas pledge to destroy them.  There were already regulations in place that protected water from mine runoff.

This is the kind of thing I am talking about. 

 https://www.forbes.com/sites/waynecrews/2016/12/30/obamas-legacy-2016-ends-with-a-record-shattering-regulatory-rulebook/#3c9d4631398e
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Online gww

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #101 on: August 08, 2017, 02:09:23 pm »
Kathy
You mentioned earlier that a true capitolist did not really like free markets cause the don't really like compitition.  I think that herbhomes comment about companys buying reps has a lot to do with regulations that make it only good for people that are already big being able to do what they do.  Things like changing the gun sellers fee to six hundred from ten bucks is one example of taking the little guy out of it and making it where big sellers that can lower the margin of each item to cover the cost.

I look at it like I look at all things, some regulation is needed and some is purely to gain advantage and so like all things, good is good no matter who does it and bad is bad no matter who does it.  I am selfish enough to want to do what I want to do with no interfearance but have no issue with regulations that keep me on a fair playing field with those who may have more to work with to try and buy influince.  I don't like it if someone says I can't take gravel out of my creek to fix a road on my place but also don't think that someone else should have such a big opperation that it drys the creek up upstream from me.  I don't want it to be illegal for me to mix up some dish soap, vegetable oil and backing soda to spray on my garden for pest control (which is illegal) but don't want dioxen used all around me.  How to find common sense is the hard part.
Cheers
gww

Offline kathyp

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #102 on: August 08, 2017, 09:27:08 pm »
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You mentioned earlier that a true capitolist did not really like free markets cause the don't really like compitition.

I didn't say that, but I'll take it on. 

I am not sure that is really true.  A true capitalist depends on the free market BUT it is true that they don't mind knocking off the competition.   :cheesy:  you might be old enough to remember the gas station wars.  Good for the consumer.  Not everyone could keep up the competition. 

These days businesses do use regulations to knock off competition.  One good example is the current push for higher minimum wage.  If you remember, Costco was one of the first to advertise that they were going to pay a higher wage than they already paid.  How does that benefit Costco?  The more bakeries, butcher shops, etc. that Costco can run out of business the better for Costco.  They not only tout the higher minimum wage, but set the pace for it thus driving others out of business. 

Capitalism is simple.  It is simply providing what people want or need at a price they can afford or are willing to pay.  The more capitalists in any given sector, the more competition and the better deal for the consumer.  Laws that prohibit monopolies were designed with this truth in mind.

?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline Acebird

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #103 on: August 08, 2017, 09:44:12 pm »
Capitalism is simple.  It is simply providing what people want or need at a price they can afford or are willing to pay.

Quote
cap?i?tal?ism
ˈkapədlˌizəm/Submit
noun
an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
synonyms:   free enterprise, private enterprise, the free market; enterprise culture
"the capitalism of emerging nations"
Kathy, you using that home made dictionary again?  Capitalism has noting to do with what people want and need nor does it have anything to do with what they can afford.  It has to do with what you can convince someone (usually stupid) to buy for more than it is worth.  Selling snake oil remedies is capitalism.  And because we Americans are mostly stupid is why we need government.
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Online gww

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #104 on: August 08, 2017, 11:53:17 pm »
kathy
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You mentioned earlier that a true capitolist did not really like free markets cause the don't really like compitition.



I didn't say that, but I'll take it on. 

I don't know where I got that but I did not miss quote you on purpose.  My brain does funny things to me at times.  I thank you for letting me know of my screw up.

I do remember the gas wars. Or at least think I do if it is not a figmate of my immagination like the quote I atributed to you :smile:.

About the lowest price for gass that I remember was thirty five cents a gallon.  I remeber them having ciggerette vending machines in most work places and having the soda machines had the neck of the bottle sticking out.  I remember black and white tv and the first vcrs (beta) and microwaves.  No ac till I was about nine.  My grandma lived in a house with no running water and no heat upstairs.  I remember feather beds and honey buckets in winter and fans in summer and no screens and being woke up by flys crawling on my face and the rooster crowing. I remember when going anywhere in a truck the young kids rode in back and there was no such thing as car seats and club cabs though the club cabs showed up some time in the 70s.  I  remember slant 6 and three speed on the collum and sleeping in the back window while we traveled.  No front wheel drive.

I remember the first computers and thinking why would anyone want one.

And atari

and
and.
Cheers
gww
Ps  You mention costco, walmart has been sued several times for moving into small towns and then selling things for lower then they were paying for them to run out the local buisnesses.  I for one have never understood why towns would give hundreds of thousands of dollars to places like walmart but gave didly to those who came before and did it all on their own and were already part of a comunity.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 12:04:42 am by gww »

Offline kathyp

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #105 on: August 09, 2017, 01:08:06 am »
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Kathy, you using that home made dictionary again?  Capitalism has noting to do with what people want and need nor does it have anything to do with what they can afford.  It has to do with what you can convince someone (usually stupid) to buy for more than it is worth.  Selling snake oil remedies is capitalism.  And because we Americans are mostly stupid is why we need government.

You mean like icrap?   :cheesy:
who needs a 900 dollar phone?  Someone must want them.  That would be the "wants" part of the equation.  Yes, selling snake oil remedies would fall in there, but if there is a buyer, then there is a seller.  That IS the way it works.  If there are two sellers, the buyer can negociate for the best price!
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline Acebird

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #106 on: August 09, 2017, 09:23:53 am »
You mean like icrap? 
Yes, perfect example.  Don't you find it irritating that you see people on assistance walking around with an Icrap, painted nails, high end shoes, etc?  Why are there no requirements for assistance like the definition of "need"?
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Online gww

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #107 on: August 09, 2017, 12:56:26 pm »
Ace
Quote
Yes, perfect example.  Don't you find it irritating that you see people on assistance walking around with an Icrap, painted nails, high end shoes, etc?  Why are there no requirements for assistance like the definition of "need"?

I remember I was renting a house to a couple and I went over to harrass them about not paying thier rent and they have this big screen tv in the living room which I am sure they were renting.  I was thinking to myself that I don't even have a big screen tv.  I lived on the edge of kicking them out for probly two years but I couldn't quite make myself do it cause I would see the wife walking to work at day light in the freezing wether.  In the end I lost a little on them and had to harrass them quite a bit to have not lost even more.

I do remember when I was young and first maried and making minimum wage and hardly keeping enough food in the house to survive, that I still drank quite a bit of beer.  It doesn't make it right or smart but even poor people are going to do little things that make their dreary exsistance bearable.  I think forgiveness with in reason is in order but reconizing that going too far in selfishness needs to be looked down on.

I find I have mixed feelings about the comercial on tv where the guy says I have a car but I can't afford insurance and then they mention something like a kids birthday.  I think I might screw my kids on their birth day but I am not sure I would.
Cheers
gww

Offline kathyp

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #108 on: August 09, 2017, 01:20:35 pm »
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I do remember when I was young and first maried and making minimum wage and hardly keeping enough food in the house to survive, that I still drank quite a bit of beer.  It doesn't make it right or smart but even poor people are going to do little things that make their dreary exsistance bearable. 

That's fine as long as it is your money that you are drinking 

Quote
Don't you find it irritating that you see people on assistance walking around with an Icrap, painted nails, high end shoes, etc?  Why are there no requirements for assistance like the definition of "need"?

Not my point, but yes   :happy:



?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #109 on: August 09, 2017, 03:51:47 pm »
kathy
Quote
You mentioned earlier that a true capitolist did not really like free markets cause the don't really like compitition.



I didn't say that, but I'll take it on. 

I don't know where I got that but I did not miss quote you on purpose.  My brain does funny things to me at times.  I thank you for letting me know of my screw up.

It was me that said it Kathy did a good job responding so I won't bother. But I will respond to this...

Capitalism is simple.  It is simply providing what people want or need at a price they can afford or are willing to pay.

Quote
cap?i?tal?ism
ˈkapədlˌizəm/Submit
noun
an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
synonyms:   free enterprise, private enterprise, the free market; enterprise culture
"the capitalism of emerging nations"
Kathy, you using that home made dictionary again?  Capitalism has noting to do with what people want and need nor does it have anything to do with what they can afford.  It has to do with what you can convince someone (usually stupid) to buy for more than it is worth.  Selling snake oil remedies is capitalism.  And because we Americans are mostly stupid is why we need government.
Where do I begin?
Lets start with your definition Ace, "A country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit..."
What does that have to do with snake oil? Note the synonyms, FREE enterprise and the FREE market. What you seem to be saying is that the government should control everything. Will some people make bad decisions and spend more for something than they should? certainly but that's not the fault of capitalism. The Dutch tulip disaster comes to mind as total stupidity but don't blame capitalism because some people are stupid. It is not the responsibility of government to protect people from themselves.
As far as convincing somebody to buy something for more than it is worth... That is the exact reason why as I said before a true capitalist hates capitalism. When people start paying a lot more for something than it is worth under capitalism competitors will come in and bring the price down. You seem to think that government price controls would be a better option? That will only artificially keep prices high. Competition makes better products for better prices. Look at cell phones for example. Perhaps the latest iFone is not much cheaper or even more expensive than the first iFone and perhaps the Samsung Galaxy S8 is more expensive than the Galaxy S but look at the capabilities. They are a lot more functional now than they were. It is because of competition that they both compete vigorously with each other to get better products.
Capitalism has everything to do with what people want and need and what they can afford. People want the latest/greatest phone for example. That is why there is such competition to get a better device to market. When people can't afford things they simply don't buy them. Prices are set by supply and demand. If there is a high demand for something there will be a high price. If nobody wants something then there won't be a high price.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Online gww

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #110 on: August 09, 2017, 07:36:26 pm »
eric
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If nobody wants something then there won't be a high price.
 
So what if there is no profit marging cause the need is too little.  The last company that was working on new antibiotics has decided to quit because drugs that are needed to be taken for a life time are more profitable then something you take for a week and then never need again.  I am sure there are many instances where things are serious or could become serious but there are no profits to be made untill they are serious.  Is this something like the security that we expect from out gov?  Or should we wait till it is a big problim where money can be made on it before it is adressed?
Cheers
gww

Offline Acebird

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #111 on: August 09, 2017, 08:11:47 pm »
It is not the responsibility of government to protect people from themselves.
It always has been for as long as I can remember.  Maybe that is why you don't like government.
Government is necessary when there is a large group of people who only think of themselves.  In most instances government balances out the thinking by doing what most people want instead of what an individual wants.  Unfortunately when government gets big it becomes susceptible to graft and corruption.  That is when we need the free media.  The free media is the balance that informs the citizens that the government has too much power.  It give the citizen a chance to change the direction in which government is going.  Many countries don't have this advantage.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #112 on: August 09, 2017, 08:37:58 pm »
The last company that was working on new antibiotics has decided to quit because drugs that are needed to be taken for a life time are more profitable then something you take for a week and then never need again.

Right you are gww there is way more profit in Viagra and birth control then there ever will be in a life saving antibiotic.  Does anyone have any idea how much the American Cancer Society has taken in?  Surely enough to cure cancer by now.  But if you cure cancer then you don't need the society so the cure is never going to come out of the American Cancer Society.
Most innovations come from Universities funded by government or private industries.  If there is profit potential it is better supported by industry.  If there isn't profit potential then it is better supported by government.

It is pretty clear to me that we have a government that is focused on protecting people so isn't it just a matter of how much we should spend on killing people (presumably for our protection) vs. how much we should spend on saving people.  In my view we are spending much to much on killing people for our protection.
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #113 on: August 09, 2017, 10:22:43 pm »


eric
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If nobody wants something then there won't be a high price.
 
So what if there is no profit marging cause the need is too little.  The last company that was working on new antibiotics has decided to quit because drugs that are needed to be taken for a life time are more profitable then something you take for a week and then never need again. 
Super diseases evolved because over use of antibiotics. I am not sure that stopping the development of them is all bad. I think changing the use of them is a better idea but I am not a doctor.
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I am sure there are many instances where things are serious or could become serious but there are no profits to be made untill they are serious.  Is this something like the security that we expect from out gov?  Or should we wait till it is a big problim where money can be made on it before it is adressed?
Cheers
gww
Looking at specific instances rather than the big picture is never a good idea. It doesn't matter what side of an issue you support there will always be something that benefits your position. The unfortunate reality is rarely do people look at the big picture.
There is a video about why politicians don't stop spending. It starts with the question "What if you designed a policy that took a penny from a million people and gave that $10,000 to one person, would any of the million people even know about it? I'll bet the guy who gets the $10,000 will." It is all about how government spending starts and why it won't stop. Healthcare is still not a right, but some people won't give up believing that it is. Just like politicians won't cut spending because of the campaign contributions received from recipients of the bad spending policies. Our country as a whole would be better off if the government gets out of the way. It is not the purpose of government to take care of people from cradle to grave.

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All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #114 on: August 09, 2017, 10:45:20 pm »


It is not the responsibility of government to protect people from themselves.
It always has been for as long as I can remember.  Maybe that is why you don't like government.
I won't deny government certainly thinks protecting people from themselves is a government responsibility. But think about how out of control it has become... When I was a kid my family took a trip to Florida to see my grandparents. My sister and I rode in the back of a pick up truck all the way there and back. If they were to do that today they would probably be arrested and thrown in prison for who knows how long and we would be put in foster care. I have good parents. We had a great time. We could make all the noise we wanted and it never bothered them in the cab.
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Government is necessary when there is a large group of people who only think of themselves.  In most instances government balances out the thinking by doing what most people want instead of what an individual wants.
So you think tyranny of the majority is ok?
 
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Unfortunately when government gets big it becomes susceptible to graft and corruption.  That is when we need the free media.  The free media is the balance that informs the citizens that the government has too much power.
The media? I don't remember who has the signature with Mark Twain's quote "he who does not read the paper is uninformed. He who does is misinformed" the media does little more than push its own agenda.
Quote
It give the citizen a chance to change the direction in which government is going.  Many countries don't have this advantage.
Key word there is "gave" now, as mentioned above, it simply pushes its own agenda.



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All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #115 on: August 10, 2017, 12:04:46 am »
"Free media?". Where is there free media?  One quote I like is to the effect of never getting into a p***ing contest with someone who buys printers ink by the barrel.  Do you have any idea how much it costs to start a newspaper or a radio or television station?  In colonial times, a newspaper could be started if you could build a printing press, but one still had to buy type, which surely was not inexpensive, and you you had to know how to set type.  I suppose one could hire a printer, but a printer willing to print "subversive" broadsides had to be found. They say freedom is never free.  Neither is "free media," I should say.  In my first career, I worked on a couple of school newspaers plus 10 commercial newspapers of varying sizes.  I never felt free (or was free) to write what I wanted because I never owned a newspaper. Any newspaper publishes material reflecting the vews of the owner, just as any broadcast medium reflects the views of a station's owners.  The internet blogs, etc., reflect really diverse (wildly diverse) viewpoints, but there's nobody, as yet, limiting the creators of content to truthful, accurate, unbiased information, so that we have to doubt anything and everything we read on the internet.  I get stuff all the time from otherwise competent former journalists like myself  that's totally fabricated and when I point out their error, they correct it, but how many people forward complete hogwash and if the truth is pointed out, they ignore it because they would be embarrased to admit they were hoodwinked into forwarding something that was so oviously made up?  Most, I think.  What is "free media?"
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Acebird

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #116 on: August 10, 2017, 09:43:37 am »

I won't deny government certainly thinks protecting people from themselves is a government responsibility. But think about how out of control it has become... When I was a kid my family took a trip to Florida to see my grandparents. My sister and I rode in the back of a pick up truck all the way there and back. If they were to do that today they would probably be arrested and thrown in prison for who knows how long and we would be put in foster care. I have good parents. We had a great time. We could make all the noise we wanted and it never bothered them in the cab.

You can still do that in FL.  Drive like a lunatic with people in the back of a pick up.
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So you think tyranny of the majority is ok?
Ask the American Indians who did not have a central government.
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Key word there is "gave" now, as mentioned above, it simply pushes its own agenda.

Voting still gives the citizen a chance to change direction.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #117 on: August 10, 2017, 09:49:49 am »
Free media is the right to publish what has occurred without censorship.  Unfortunately it is a sticky situation to sue the president for lying so the country has to deal with that for now.  But any other publisher can be sued.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #118 on: August 10, 2017, 02:17:46 pm »
Quote
Is this something like the security that we expect from out gov?  Or should we wait till it is a big problim where money can be made on it before it is adressed?
Cheers

Thus the orphan drug law.  Would you force companies to do research on drugs, pay billions to bring them to market, and expect no profit?  How would they survive?  Or would we have government run pharmaceutical companies?  How would that work for the consumer?

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It always has been for as long as I can remember.  Maybe that is why you don't like government.
Government is necessary when there is a large group of people who only think of themselves.  In most instances government balances out the thinking by doing what most people want instead of what an individual wants.  Unfortunately when government gets big it becomes susceptible to graft and corruption.  That is when we need the free media.  The free media is the balance that informs the citizens that the government has too much power.  It give the citizen a chance to change the direction in which government is going.  Many countries don't have this advantage.

The fact that people think this way should scare the living daylight out of people. 
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Repeal of the ACA is dead. They should get to work on tax reform now
« Reply #119 on: August 10, 2017, 02:37:19 pm »

Quote
It always has been for as long as I can remember.  Maybe that is why you don't like government.
Government is necessary when there is a large group of people who only think of themselves.  In most instances government balances out the thinking by doing what most people want instead of what an individual wants.  Unfortunately when government gets big it becomes susceptible to graft and corruption.  That is when we need the free media.  The free media is the balance that informs the citizens that the government has too much power.  It give the citizen a chance to change the direction in which government is going.  Many countries don't have this advantage.

The fact that people think this way should scare the living daylight out of people.

Kathy, it certainly scares me!
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin