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Author Topic: My solution to funding health care  (Read 1164 times)

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2017, 09:47:52 pm »
Forgive me for not reading this entire thread. But here are my 2 pieces of copper plated zinc. VA = single payer... Not much more to say about single payer. I think the entire problem is the mindset that government has a role to play in health care at all. Government, at least at the federal level has no role at all to play with the possible exception of interstate commerce. Keeping commerce regular between the states is one of the enumerated powers of Congress. So any insurance company should be able to sell insurance to anybody in any state. But no individual should be forced to buy it. I have to buy auto insurance but only because I own a car. If a state wants to force residents to buy insurance fine. People can move to another state. I think we give charity way to little credit. Given the chance, charity could address many of the social welfare programs on which the government hemmorages money. Instead, the government takes money by force for programs that perpetuate poverty. There are some doctors that will treat poor patients out of charity. There are also charitable organizations that will help pay for medical expenses of poor people.

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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2017, 10:58:18 pm »
What Eric said x2.
Jim
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Offline kathyp

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2017, 12:45:57 am »
Quote
There are some doctors that will treat poor patients out of charity. There are also charitable organizations that will help pay for medical expenses of poor people.

There would be more if we did some reasonable tort reform.  Many docs are covered by whatever service or HMO they work for and can't do charity work for fear of the law suites.  It's a huge expense that most people are not aware of, and a huge drain on the potential for services. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline beecanbee

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2017, 05:12:34 am »
Well, you all may be right that we will go to single payer.  Seems most are too lazy or unimaginative to want to do anything else.  In one discussion elsewhere, there was even the suggestion that a benevolent dictatorship was a good thing to consider.

since most of our budget is already going to mandatory spending, the money will no doubt come from the military.  I will watch with interest (and some glee) as the world figures out how to defend itself without our military and still fund all the welfare they pass out to their people.

I envision some Greece like events, or perhaps rapid language changes.  How different is Japanese from Korean anyway?   but hey...choices, right?

While I certainly agree that the US provides military security that benefits numerous countries - it does so as part and parcel of providing for its own security ? which would be compromised if other countries did not host US bases and provide support services for US assets far from home.  In addition, those same countries provide for their own defense and in some cases jointly provide for theater defense, which also protects the US from global threats.  So IMO, providing that overseas support is as much in the self-interest of the US, as it is in the interest of the foreign countries who are protected by the US.  Of course were the US to withdraw that protection, those countries would need to increase spending ? just as would the US if those countries withdrew from these alliances.

The is no need to assume that US military spending would need to be cut in order to provide universal health care.  Universal health care being so much cheaper, benefiting so many more, and providing better health outcomes ? it is a no brainer IMO.
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Offline beecanbee

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2017, 05:18:57 am »
Forgive me for not reading this entire thread. But here are my 2 pieces of copper plated zinc. VA = single payer... Not much more to say about single payer. I think the entire problem is the mindset that government has a role to play in health care at all. Government, at least at the federal level has no role at all to play with the possible exception of interstate commerce. Keeping commerce regular between the states is one of the enumerated powers of Congress. So any insurance company should be able to sell insurance to anybody in any state. But no individual should be forced to buy it. I have to buy auto insurance but only because I own a car. If a state wants to force residents to buy insurance fine. People can move to another state. I think we give charity way to little credit. Given the chance, charity could address many of the social welfare programs on which the government hemmorages money. Instead, the government takes money by force for programs that perpetuate poverty. There are some doctors that will treat poor patients out of charity. There are also charitable organizations that will help pay for medical expenses of poor people.

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For sure there are problems with VA care - underfunding by Republicans, being separate from the overall healthcare system, and maybe a few more - but being single payer is not one of them.

Even after a full universal healthcare system is implemented, it is likely that the VA system would persist, given the nature of some of the injuries - but common ailments could be handled by general and other specialist hospitals without any problem.

I don`t see how providing first-world healthcare perpetuates poverty.

Happy 4th!
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Offline Acebird

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2017, 09:03:29 am »
I have to buy auto insurance but only because I own a car.
In NY the car needs insurance only if it is registered.  Anyone can buy the insurance it doesn't have to be the owner.
Quote
There are also charitable organizations that will help pay for medical expenses of poor people.

Yeah, right.  This is the myth that everyone wants to believe when someone else is facing bankruptcy due to medical costs.  Charitable organizations primarily provide some money for research and limousines for the mucky mucks in the organizations.  If you have ever had to deal with financial ruin due to a medical condition give us a list of who or what organization that helped you.  Everyone else just believes in the myth.
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2017, 09:37:48 am »
Brian,
I live out in the country. We routinely have events to pay for medical bills for people who cannot afford their medical bills.
A friends daughter had cancer that the insurance company was delaying approval. If they had not come through, she was going to tell her adult daughter to go into the emergency room screaming of pain and they would have to remove it.
Jim
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline gww

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2017, 10:08:53 am »
jim
Quote
I live out in the country. We routinely have events to pay for medical bills for people who cannot afford their medical bills.
A friends daughter had cancer that the insurance company was delaying approval. If they had not come through, she was going to tell her adult daughter to go into the emergency room screaming of pain and they would have to remove it.

Which shows that the system we have is not so good that it still doesn't need charity.  Good on those that are helping.  To jump to the conclusion that enough more would help if more help was needed is a strech.  The people doing great charitable contrabutions will probly not stop and have the oppertunity to help as things are and deserve credit when they do.  To think it would be easier for people to help each other and more would want to do it if we got rid of medicare and SS and VA just does not make sense. 

I know lots of people that have VA coverage and let me tell you that their treatment is better then some I know that don't have any insurance and barily have food to eat.  One other thing,  The VA did well in some places and on some things and worse in other parts.  Some of those other parts made the news and work started on fixing them.  They didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater and say VA is doing this one thing bad and so lets get rid of all of it.  Instead, they work on the bad things and keep the good.

I remember George Bush seniour's view when he ran for a second term.  Erics comment repeats George's platform perfectly.  I remember the "Kinder and gentler nation" and "The thousand points of light"

It just does not make sence that making things worse will be better. More may step up and help more but the resources they have to use to help will be less because of what they themselve lost.
Cheers
gww

Offline kathyp

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2017, 12:38:54 pm »
Quote
If you have ever had to deal with financial ruin due to a medical condition give us a list of who or what organization that helped you.  Everyone else just believes in the myth.

You think this doesn't happen in single payer countries?  I keep going back to England NHS because it is the system I am most familiar with, but Canadians come for the same reasons:  The government only pay for SOME care and it has to be on the list.  If a Canadian or Brit wants what is not on the list, they have to pay out of pocket or in England, have private insurance. That private insurance has to have been purchased before the illness because insurance there does not take pre-existing conditions. 

Example:  Family member has a history of breast cancer on her side.  The treatment her mother got was 1. delayed...months for a biopsy and then months to begin treatment.  This was so appalling to the daughter she has purchased and maintained private insurance all her life so that if she gets the family curse, she does not have to use NHS. 
We used to take care of Canadians all the time when we live up by the border.  They couldn't get things like an MRI when the Canadian doc wanted to rule out a brain tumor, or couldn't get the meds they wanted when what they were taking was not working.  Canada didn't have it available and because they are a true single payer, there was not a private way to get them.  Sometimes the Canadian system paid for the care in the US, like when they were sending their high risk pregnancies to us because they didn't have people or facilities to deal with them, but often not.  The patient had to pay out of pocket. 

Never mind things you might want, and could get here, like joint replacements, etc.  Certainly not emergencies, but go the quality of life. 

I will add a caveat here:  All of these systems seem to work reasonably well in the cities.  If you live in Bristol or London you are close to major medical that has things like cardiac surgery, etc. available....even if you have to wait a stupid amount of time.  If you do not live in those places, you have to travel to them.  England is very small.  Imagine if the only place in your state for care is a major city and you must wait in line with everyone else for that one MRI, those few surgeons, or whatever else you might need other than a band-aid. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2017, 03:51:17 pm »
I still have not read the entire thread but I have read most of what has been said since my last $0.02. That said I have a couple questions for those of you who think government has the answer. How much does it cost? If you go to the doctor how much does it cost? Is there any reason for prices to come down when somebody else is paying? Compare that to something like laser eye surgery. Most medical insurance does not cover elective eye surgery. Remember when it came out and it was a couple grand per eye? now it is a couple hundred. It has been a while since I read Dr. Rand Paul's book and I don't remember for certain but he mentions a surgical technique, I think for cataracts that was developed by somebody in a very poor location. The procedure costs about $20.  Prior to that, many people went blind because they couldn't afford to get their eyes fixed. Government didn't help. It was a concerned doctor that wanted to help people.

It bothers me people are often quick to think that more government and taxes can fix problems, when almost all solutions provided by the government for anything have been failures of epic proportion.

Government is the problem not the solution.

I say this because market forces should have an effect of prices of health care but they don't. Just like market forces should have an effect on college tuition but they don't. The reason college tuition and student debt is so high is because the government is there to help. If the government didn't guarantee loans to anybody wanting to take college classes, colleges would lower tuition or watch enrollments dwindle. With the government's "help" however, anybody can go to college... It is so easy, and colleges and universities are more than willing to help students go in to debt so far they have to look up to see bottom. The same unintended consequences occur when government gets involved in health care.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline kathyp

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They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2017, 05:56:12 pm »
I think the solution to our litigious society and our skyrocketing health care and insurance costs is simple.  Make insurance illegal.  Illegal to have, illegal to sell.  All kinds of insurance.  No point in suing anyone if there are no deep pockets.  Doctors can go back to thinking it matters what things cost...
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Offline kathyp

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2017, 06:02:47 pm »
Doctors and patients. 

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They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2017, 12:43:19 pm »
I think the solution to our litigious society and our skyrocketing health care and insurance costs is simple.  Make insurance illegal.  Illegal to have, illegal to sell.  All kinds of insurance.  No point in suing anyone if there are no deep pockets.  Doctors can go back to thinking it matters what things cost...

That would certainly make costs drop. I am not sure I totally agree with that... I believe people should have the right to buy and sell anything they want provided it doesn't effect anybody other than the purchaser and the seller. I think that rather than having employers provide insurance for employees they should only be allowed to contribute to a fund rather than negotiate group insurance rates and purchase insurance on behalf of the employee. That would get people more involved with purchasing insurance policies to match their personal needs rather than get what ever somebody else negotiates. The idea that men should be forced to buy insurance policies to cover pregnancy and or birth control is a little ridiculous.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline gww

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2017, 01:19:45 pm »
Eric B......
Quote
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

I don't know how much we agree on with health care but I just love your Quote that is on all your post.
Cheers
gww

Offline Acebird

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2017, 02:24:41 pm »
The idea that men should be forced to buy insurance policies to cover pregnancy and or birth control is a little ridiculous.

Not if he doesn't get sterilized.  Actually a man should pay higher premiums because he is a higher risk of impregnating more than one woman at a time and doesn't have to wait 9 months to impregnate again.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2017, 10:54:43 pm »
The idea that men should be forced to buy insurance policies to cover pregnancy and or birth control is a little ridiculous.

Not if he doesn't get sterilized.  Actually a man should pay higher premiums because he is a higher risk of impregnating more than one woman at a time and doesn't have to wait 9 months to impregnate again.
He also has the option of keeping it in his pants. It takes two to tango.


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All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2017, 10:58:14 pm »
Eric B......
Quote
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

I don't know how much we agree on with health care but I just love your Quote that is on all your post.
Cheers
gww
Ben Franklin knew and understood the blessings of liberty... Unfortunately way to many people these days don't... And they vote...

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All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin