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Author Topic: My solution to funding health care  (Read 1196 times)

Offline Jim 134

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2017, 05:05:52 pm »
          I do realize $1,000,000 seems like a lot of money. Speaking from personal experience. My wife would have ran out of money about 8 to 10 years before she died. And that was four years ago she passed away.


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Offline gww

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2017, 05:15:22 pm »
paspar
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Single payer would look no different than the post office.  An utter mess and never on budget. Are health insurance companies the best answer? No.

The post office was basically privatized in 1970 making them along the lines of the electric companys that are private but with gov oversite.  Before then stamps were $0.03 and were not considered a product.  Now it is a netrual revanue agency that has to pay for its buisness by selling its products.  Sorta like blue cross insurance when it was a non-profit company.  Just saying
gww

Ps beecanbee
I have made many of the same insurance already does this arguments many times in other threads.  I couldn't agree with your position more then I do.  Typing long post is hard work.
Cheers

Online kathyp

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2017, 05:23:38 pm »
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Compare to the thousands who die every year in the US for lack of insurance, or worse - for having insurance that simply decides to no longer pay.

Where are these people.  this would have been the best argument for ACA but there were not bodies, no stories, and the one little kid trotted out because his mother died was representative of a lie.

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The most good for the most people is national healthcare for all, and single payer.  The government needs to get involved to solve the distorted system the US has today - for would-be patients, patients, and doctors.

Because the govenrment runs things so well?  Because the government is efficient?  Because it makes better decision that you do?

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That is exactly the same as in the US today with private insurance, with refusals to pay.  Many patients get around this by participating in trials, and by begging for mercy to the drug companies who may be willing to give it away in order to build doctor relationships, but this is not the case for most.

This is true, but they have those options.  With single payer, you don't.

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Many more on Medicare/Medicaid today, and thus insured, under the ACA, so naturally they use more services than in the past.  If there is abuse it needs to be addressed, just as it needs to be addressed when private insurance refuses to pay.

Everyone seems thrilled to have more people dependant on government.  It's FAIR.  what about the people who had to go on Medicaid because they lost hours, lost their insurance, and were forced into this?  what about the people who are paying more for something with a deductible so high the insurance is worthless to them?  Yeah, you got more people on the government dole, but it came at the expense of many other people.  It came at the expense of everyone paying for any kind of insurance.

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         I do realize $1,000,000 seems like a lot of money. Speaking from personal experience. My wife would have ran out of money about 8 to 10 years before she died. And that was four years ago she passed away.

Because the majority of people use the majority of money as seniors, I left Medicare alone. Rather than put then entire burden on the plan, those payroll taxes would continue and Medicare would go on.  There would have to be a reload provision for people outside Medicare who are ill, etc.   
A Million per person to be used in either cash care of insurance would cover most.  Even if you had to do more, it would be less than the billions we are spending now and they plan to spend. 

I don't think any of us can point to a government run program that is really well run and efficient.  If there is a way to fund care but keep the government from screwing up the system AND save money, this seems like something worth looking at.  And if I'm repeating myself, sorry.  This conversation is happening across multiple sites.   :wink:

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Online kathyp

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2017, 05:27:37 pm »
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The post office was basically privatized in 1970 making them along the lines of the electric companys that are private but with gov oversite.

Right, but the PO got into trouble because of other things like legacy costs and benefits.  We can't evaluate the real cost before because it was subsidized.  just because stamps were 3 cents then and are more now, doesn't mean that privatizing them was the reason.  There were numerous reasons and inefficiency was is one.  I also remember the price of gas in 1970  :grin:  that, and they were the only game in town.  Not like you had a lot of choices to send your mail.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline beecanbee

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2017, 07:22:41 pm »

Where are these people. 

Dead of course.  But before death, they are on the online cancer forms too.  Many stories of struggles with insurance companies can be found there. 

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Because the govenrment runs things so well?  Because the government is efficient?  Because it makes better decision that you do?

Because the current system is so *%$-ed up.  And yes, the government does run things better than insurance companies do.  The decisions to be made are by doctors.  I would rather my doctor makes the decisions on my treatment than an insurance agent over the phone, outsourced to who knows where, and with a bonus based upon denial of care.

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This is true, but they have those options.  With single payer, you don't.

Very few people have the option to participate in a trial, but that doesn`t change under single payer - since trials are funded by the pharm companies.

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   what about the people who had to go on Medicaid because they lost hours, lost their insurance, and were forced into this?  what about the people who are paying more for something with a deductible so high the insurance is worthless to them?  Yeah, you got more people on the government dole, but it came at the expense of many other people.  It came at the expense of everyone paying for any kind of insurance.

People are forced into paying taxes for a military that some don`t support, or paying property tases to support schools long after their own children have grown, or paying gasoline taxes for roads they don`t use.  It is the nature of a national insurance program and participation in society.  And in any event, single payer and national coverage will bring down the costs.

As for paying more for less insurance, while I do not believe this to have been the case, it is the first I have come across it.  Do you have any data/links?  Or can you provide a clear explaination as to the mechanics involved?

"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

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Offline Acebird

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2017, 08:31:36 pm »
The government never controls cost until things are out of hand.  It can't do any program without a monstrous bureaucracy (NHS 5th largest employer in the world for 65 million people) When they do finally figure out that a program is out of hand, they usually just print money to cover it, rather than do something to reduce cost AND the people throw a hissy fit if anyone tries to limit "free" stuff.  True in England and true here.

You have identified a problem.  I don't think you are alone.  What irritates me is not solving the problem.  The easy solution is to get rid of a workable program instead of getting rid of a problem that everyone is aware of.  To me that lowers our dominance of solving problems.  Rightfully we should waste away to a second rate country.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2017, 08:36:34 pm »
Not like you had a lot of choices to send your mail.
I think it is illegal to send mail by any other means then the USPO.  Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
So where is the privatization?
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2017, 10:19:45 pm »
My recollection is that the USPS fought like crazy to thwart UPS and FedEx.  But the junk mail in your box every day is the bread and butter of the USPS and none of us wants all that stuff that, in my case, goes from the mailbox to recycling. 
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Online kathyp

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2017, 08:54:09 pm »
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The decisions to be made are by doctors.  I would rather my doctor makes the decisions on my treatment than an insurance agent over the phone, outsourced to who knows where, and with a bonus based upon denial of care.

All the more reason to leave choices in the hands of consumers. 

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Very few people have the option to participate in a trial, but that doesn`t change under single payer - since trials are funded by the pharm companies.

Trials may or may not change.  companies don't develop drugs that they can't sell for profit.  If the government is controlling which drugs and what cost, choices are reduced.  they are reduced in availability and in development. 

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And in any event, single payer and national coverage will bring down the costs.

You are right that we pay taxes for things we do not like or use.  You are wrong about costs.  No government program ever brings down cost.  we have only 1/2ish of the population paying federal taxes now.  Where do you think the money for this will come from?  CA decided not to do single payer in their state because they couldn't figure out how to tax enough to get the billions their program was estimated to cost.  That's one state.  Spread that over 50 states and 350 million people. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline gww

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2017, 09:10:06 pm »
Kathy
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No government program ever brings down cost.  we have only 1/2ish of the population paying federal taxes now.  Where do you think the money for this will come from?  CA decided not to do single payer in their state because they couldn't figure out how to tax enough to get the billions their program was estimated to cost.  That's one state.  Spread that over 50 states and 350 million people. 

As far as health care is concerned, your statement above does not ring true in my mind.  It is not like uninsured people now are getting no treatment.  My view is that the reason an asperin might cost a hundred dollars or if you leave the hospital in a gown and slippers, you find your bill has an extra $50 tacked on.  Currently this and hospital charges are making up the differrence for the treatment that they give to those that can not pay.

Care for those that can not pay is being given in the most expensive way.  There is lots of middle men making it even cost more.  Rather then put the burden on the few that do have insurance and are basicaly footing the whole bill, put it on the tax payers and get as much help from the public that benefit from care and not just make those that have insurance cover it all.  then maby people can see a family doctor rather then a emergency room.  Then maby if I have to leave with a walker or bed pan, the cost for those Items may more reflect what they are worth and my care bill will be reduced.

Having 350 million people won't change but how those get health bennifits could change and be better and cheeper then how it is handled now.
Cheers
gww

Ps  Right now if you have nothing and have a bad run of health, you get some treatment.  However, if you have something and have been helping cover everyone with your insurance and you finaly limmit out or the deductable becomes too much, you are the one that can lose everything cause you have something to lose.  It doesn't matter that up till then you were the one paying for everyones health care.  You worry about giving people something that they didn't work for and I worry about things being so expensive that I can lose everything I own and then I can be made as poor as all those that I took care of all the time before.  Not a very good merit system for me to be in if all my hard work comes to naught.  If that is a fair way for things to be then I should have just not worked ever and let others take care of me.

Offline beecanbee

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2017, 09:24:26 pm »
The US today has the highest cost of healthcare - per capita, and as a % of GDP.  Just google `healthcare costs by country`.  NHI and single payer will bring it down.  Obscene profit taking is just one very small part of the problem.  Multiple inefficient processes, and not having preventative care for many people is a far greater problem.  (And NO ? it isn`t because of undocumented immigrants.)

If national defense doesn`t bankrupt the country, and the taxes can be found to pay for it, so too can healthcare for all be afforded.
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2017, 11:24:27 pm »
The reason we have the highest health care cost is due to government regulation. Not the lack of it. My son is on opoid patches for the rest of his life. He has to pay a doctor every month just to get the same medicine. There is no reason for him to see a doctor every month except that the government requires it.
Jim
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Offline beecanbee

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2017, 11:54:29 pm »
And to add? the US ranks last in health outcomes for listed countries?  1st, United Kingdom, 2nd Switzerland, 3rd Sweden, 4th Australia, 5th Germany & Netherlands, 7th New Zealand & Norway (tied), 9th France, 10th Canada, and finally 11th The United States.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2014/06/16/u-s-healthcare-ranked-dead-last-compared-to-10-other-countries/#7cdb5a6e576f

"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Offline beecanbee

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2017, 12:00:41 am »
The reason we have the highest health care cost is due to government regulation. Not the lack of it. My son is on opoid patches for the rest of his life. He has to pay a doctor every month just to get the same medicine. There is no reason for him to see a doctor every month except that the government requires it.
Jim

While I sympathize, I do not buy that argument.  We have the same here in Japan and I suspect in most countries on the list in my prior post.  In the US it may better be attributed to the insurance companies, rather than to the government.  Here it is an aspect of the Doctors union - equivalent to your AMA.
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Offline gww

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2017, 12:38:10 am »
Quote from beecanbee
Quote
  Here it is an aspect of the Doctors union - equivalent to your AMA.

I suspect this is correct. 
It has gotten so bad here that even the vets are organized well enough to lobby and win that even dogs have to have a perscription to be given heartworm medicine that they need every month for the rest of thier life.  My daughter is an eye doctor and the ama is the administators of all the medical schools and the schools have quotas for how many doctors will be trained.  It is one of the reasons that lots of doctors don't accept new paitients and also if you want to go to new doctor, they will not let you go to a differrent one that might be part of the same office pool.  If you go somewhere else, it could be months before your first appointment.  All the things that people complain about will happen in a government run program IE: waiting list, all ready happen now with out the government running things.

Cheers
gww

Offline Psparr

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2017, 01:14:01 am »
The only reason an aspirin costs $100 is because Medicare and medicade pay only a pittance of the actual cost. The rest is made up by overcharging insurers.

Offline herbhome

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2017, 02:26:46 am »
My two cents. :smile:
 How about a National Health Care system that provides services to all Americans. If Americans want 4 star treatment, (meaning private rooms, prime rib, mint on the pillow), and they and their insurers can pay for it, let them. In many neighborhoods in the U.S., private security firms handle the duties of law enforcement, providing the level of service these citizens are willing to pay for.
I'm all for free enterprise, but if I can get good health care at the price of staying in a ward and eating cafeteria crap without a life changing bill later, sign me on!
Neill

Offline beecanbee

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2017, 03:51:46 am »
My two cents. :smile:
 How about a National Health Care system that provides services to all Americans. If Americans want 4 star treatment, (meaning private rooms, prime rib, mint on the pillow), and they and their insurers can pay for it, let them. In many neighborhoods in the U.S., private security firms handle the duties of law enforcement, providing the level of service these citizens are willing to pay for.
I'm all for free enterprise, but if I can get good health care at the price of staying in a ward and eating cafeteria crap without a life changing bill later, sign me on!

I basically agree with that ? national health care should ensure that good medicine is practiced and anything beyond that is either paid for thru top-up private policies, or is out of pocket.

My national plan pays (approx.) $70/day for a shared room (6 to 8 patients), while I must pay the full $120/day for a private room.  I do not have top-up insurance, but for me it is worth it.  I was in for 22 days in May/early June, and now again for 22 days as of today in mid-June thru today, with a week to go.  I can afford it.

But for the medical services ? scans, blood/urine tests, doctor services, medications, etc., my monthly co-pay is capped at $320/month.  The normal co-pay rate is 30%, but with that cap.  Of course I paid heavily in payroll taxes when I was working (deducted at source), and still pay about $300/year for the insurance (the lowest rate).

I am all over the patient sites in the US and UK, and my care is comparable, and in some aspects better than I would receive at leading hospitals there.  Plus I have zero contact with insurance companies while for those in the US it is a very significant effort to get them to pay, and that also falls onto the doctors to justify, and sometimes fight for it too.
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Offline Acebird

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2017, 08:14:34 am »
If the government is controlling which drugs and what cost, choices are reduced.  they are reduced in availability and in development. 
That is like saying soap opera's result in better soaps.  There is no shortage of drugs in Europe and in many cases they develop them first.  You are a little thick on this subject.  Those who do not have the funds IN THIS COUNTRY don't have any choice with what we have now.  The insurance company makes the choice and there by doing affects what drugs get developed.
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And in any event, single payer and national coverage will bring down the costs.
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You are right that we pay taxes for things we do not like or use.  You are wrong about costs.  No government program ever brings down cost.  we have only 1/2ish of the population paying federal taxes now.  Where do you think the money for this will come from?
From some of the other half.  Why is it that only 1/2ish is paying taxes?  If you ad something to a program it will increase costs but you are also taking away a big middle man, the insurance companies.  Which cost more insurance or medical costs?  Insurance because they make a profit and a huge one at that.
Brian Cardinal
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Online kathyp

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Re: My solution to funding health care
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2017, 08:04:19 pm »
Well, you all may be right that we will go to single payer.  Seems most are too lazy or unimaginative to want to do anything else.  In one discussion elsewhere, there was even the suggestion that a benevolent dictatorship was a good thing to consider.

since most of our budget is already going to mandatory spending, the money will no doubt come from the military.  I will watch with interest (and some glee) as the world figures out how to defend itself without our military and still fund all the welfare they pass out to their people.

I envision some Greece like events, or perhaps rapid language changes.  How different is Japanese from Korean anyway?   but hey...choices, right? 

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville