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Author Topic: What is going on in Europe?  (Read 1363 times)

Online kathyp

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2017, 04:00:18 pm »
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Separation of church and state was the driving force for many settlers coming to this country.

Not in the way liberals mean it.  The ability to worship freely without interference from the federal government was what they wanted.  There were a number of states that supported churchs out of state funds.  Schools had bible teachings and readings routinely.  The reason the 1st amendment is an instruction to Congress is that the founders specifically wanted to restrict the federal government from interference in these things and leave how they were handled to the states.  It was not until activist courts got involved that this changed.  Rather than re-interpret the 1st, they should have amended it.  It still technically stands as the law of the land even though courts have interfered in its meaning.

You need only read the many writings and speeches of the founders to understand they believe God (not a religion) needed to be an integral part of the society because, as Adams said, ?Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people?. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.?

People are either regulated by their belief system, or they are regulated by government and laws.  Every communist government has understood this.  Every one of them as destroyed or co-opted religions in their countries. 

Because we were designed to have limited government and maximum freedom, we needed the people to have a cultural morality and that comes from a common basic belief system...which is not the same as a common religion. 

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2017, 04:44:06 pm »
I think your wrong Kathy.  Our for fathers were educated.  They knew what the words meant that they used.  They did not want a repeat of the king of England or a repeat of the Vatican or a repeat of Isrial, or a repeat or Iran, ect, ect, ect.  So they created a form of government with no religious involvement.  And no where is God mentioned in the Constitution.  Doesn't mean they didn't believe in God or at least some of them.
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2017, 05:12:45 pm »
Brian,
Our founding fathers prayed to god as a group before each meeting. They considered the ten commandments a the guide for all of our laws. Does that sound like had no religious involvement?
Jim
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline Acebird

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2017, 05:34:52 pm »
Jim, praying to God as a group did not affect the outcome of what was in our laws and did not infringe on any citizens believe.  If I wanted to pray before I took an exam in school how could anyone stop me?  No one did.  If a general prays for his troupes before they go to battle does that make it a religious war?  It is not that most of our for fathers didn't have religious beliefs it is that they believed the United States should not be controlled by religious beliefs.

Sixth Commandment :  Thou shalt not kill.  We have four branches of the military with basically one function.
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Offline Psparr

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2017, 06:46:38 pm »
Thou shalt not kill translated from Greek meant thou shalt not murder.  Murder being an unjustified killing.
Exodus 22:2

Online kathyp

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2017, 07:44:11 pm »
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They did not want a repeat of the King of England or a repeat of the Vatican or a repeat of Isrial, or a repeat or Iran, ect, ect, ect.  So they created a form of government with no religious involvement.  And no where is God mentioned in the Constitution.  Doesn't mean they didn't believe in God or at least some of them.

You are not wrong but you do not seem to register in your opinions what you are saying.   :wink:  They did not want a king, although it was considered.  What they really didn't want was a state (national) church.  Religion is not part of the law of the land.  That much you have right.  Where you go wrong with your separation argument and the founders is that religion/belief in God/faith was very much a part of their practices even within government.  It was in federal government and still is, in the military and still is, in schools, and at various public gatherings.  There was no prohibition against religious objects on public property. 

While the Constitution does not mention God,  the main purpose is to limit government, the Declaration of Independence makes clear that our founders believed that our rights came from God/Creator rather than from man/government. 

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/

TJ is often held up as a Diest at best and and agnostic at worst, but many of his writings and quotes refference God.
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson,

Ben Franklin wanted this on the Seal "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God"

George Washington after battle (religious leanings sort of questionable) "God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the battle."

And finally, the letter to which Jefferson replied and from which the incorrect decision about seperation came.

https://jeffersonpapers.princeton.edu/selected-documents/danbury-baptist-association

The SCOTUS, absent exact constitutional law to reference, is to look at intent.  In this case, they failed to understand (or care) that the Danbury Baptist Church was asking a specific question about their state because they were a religious minority and were concerned about persecution in their own state. 

If you read Jeffersons reply in that context, he kind of blew them off.  He understood that the federal government had no jurisdiction over the state but his assurance was that he would uphold federal law.

 The relevant part of Jeffersons reply "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. " 

https://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville