Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: What is going on in Europe?  (Read 1362 times)

Online iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8034
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2017, 10:54:41 am »
Sorry, Ace, but that is a federal "osha" law. No local  or union involved. NC is a right to work state and has very little union, and what is here is ineffective.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Online kathyp

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 16356
  • Gender: Female
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2017, 01:01:34 pm »
Quote
You mean banned in Sunni countries and banned by the Shah who ruled as a secular ruler?

for a time publicly banned by the Ayatollahs in Iran but only because they did not think it was politically expedient to make it public.   

Quote
They are rational actors and they do not think that killing off the county is in anyway their benefit.

I don't want to write a book here, but I'll try to get you started.  "Rational" is a subjective term.  Depending on what you believe, anything can be rational.

First basic Muslim belief:  Salvation for them depends on works.  They are judged when they die and depending on how they did during life, they get to enter heaven or not..with some exceptions, one being martyrdom. 


Next, we are not talking about the common 12th Imam belief, but rather 12ers specifically in Iran.  They are a different breed and the reason they are dangerous is that they believe they are chosen to usher in the 12th Imam.   
I am not a great fan of wikipedia, but this gives a primer on the conditions for the return of the 12th

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_eschatology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

Some stuff on ISIS because this fight furthers the 12ers end time beliefs.  ISIS has essentially the same goal and is not willing to be a passive observer.  The difference is that they do not have a country and a nuke program. It doesn't matter that they are a different sect.   What they do have is the ability to further the prophecy of chaos and wars in Syria, Iraq, and destruction of Muslim holy sites, all parts of various return prophecies. 
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/09/isis-flag-apocalypse/406498/

So what separates the common 12 Imam beliefs that most Muslims hold from Irans 12ers?  In short, the Iranian 12ers believe they have been chosen to create the conditions that bring the return of the Mahdi.  Rather than watching events, they wish to create events that hasten the return.  To that end, they desire to acquire the tools they need to fulfill the prophecies and usher in the Mahdi.

Once you get the above and then watch this video, you see it in a different light. You understand why Iran funds so much terrorism.   

Why did I get started on the study of Muslim Eschatology?  Because a Muslim right here on Beemaster told me that if you don't understand this part of Islam, you don't understand anything....and there is a lot to try and understand! 





They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline bwallace23350

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1366
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2017, 01:24:55 pm »
Quote
You mean banned in Sunni countries and banned by the Shah who ruled as a secular ruler?

for a time publicly banned by the Ayatollahs in Iran but only because they did not think it was politically expedient to make it public.   

Quote
They are rational actors and they do not think that killing off the county is in anyway their benefit.

I don't want to write a book here, but I'll try to get you started.  "Rational" is a subjective term.  Depending on what you believe, anything can be rational.

First basic Muslim belief:  Salvation for them depends on works.  They are judged when they die and depending on how they did during life, they get to enter heaven or not..with some exceptions, one being martyrdom. 


Next, we are not talking about the common 12th Imam belief, but rather 12ers specifically in Iran.  They are a different breed and the reason they are dangerous is that they believe they are chosen to usher in the 12th Imam.   
I am not a great fan of wikipedia, but this gives a primer on the conditions for the return of the 12th

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_eschatology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

Some stuff on ISIS because this fight furthers the 12ers end time beliefs.  ISIS has essentially the same goal and is not willing to be a passive observer.  The difference is that they do not have a country and a nuke program. It doesn't matter that they are a different sect.   What they do have is the ability to further the prophecy of chaos and wars in Syria, Iraq, and destruction of Muslim holy sites, all parts of various return prophecies. 
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/09/isis-flag-apocalypse/406498/

So what separates the common 12 Imam beliefs that most Muslims hold from Irans 12ers?  In short, the Iranian 12ers believe they have been chosen to create the conditions that bring the return of the Mahdi.  Rather than watching events, they wish to create events that hasten the return.  To that end, they desire to acquire the tools they need to fulfill the prophecies and usher in the Mahdi.

Once you get the above and then watch this video, you see it in a different light. You understand why Iran funds so much terrorism.   

Why did I get started on the study of Muslim Eschatology?  Because a Muslim right here on Beemaster told me that if you don't understand this part of Islam, you don't understand anything....and there is a lot to try and understand! 



Save your garbage about getting me started on explaining a rational actor. Not trying to be mean but rational actor in political science talk has a pretty set objective criteria to meet. By that we mean that the state is a rational actor in that it seeks to preserve itself and governance, it seeks to further the power and goals of the state, and the state takes steps to achieve said goals. When poly science people talk about rational actors in political science that is what we mean.

I don't know a lot about Muslim endtime beliefs though but sponsoring terrorism is not an only Iranian thing. I have seen no action by Iran, besides going after nuclear weapons and who can really blame them with the US invading their neighbors at will and arming their other regional enemies like the Saudi's to the teeth. Perhaps you will have to explain better how this is going to lead them to nuking everyone including themselves and how this unites the Muslim world?

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3408
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2017, 04:05:56 pm »
Here's one ace. The 2006 IBC says that a door in a place of business, can't have the glass in the door start at 54". It can start higher, and even lower. Why is that?
Because it is discriminatory against someone in a wheelchair. You can see through it but they can't.
So if you want to make an improvement to your business you also need to change all non compliant doors at the same time.
Just complete garbage!

Again this must be a local law nothing to do with the federal government.  Our place of business along with thousands of others, maybe millions, have glass top to bottom with glass side lights floor to ceiling.
https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x89d9417463b93023:0x348c48a48f189c6b!2m19!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m13!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!3m1!7e115!4shttps://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname%3D111343866742626835005%26id%3D6113182545522667698%26target%3DPHOTO!5saccess+storage+utica+ny+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e3!2s-AXtQZDXBSMw/VNZjItj_MLI/AAAAAAAAAAc/9tx7vN4RtDUdwod5OyBVEbzjI38tBrnAACJkC&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUxZvumdzUAhVEWT4KHcMqCxUQoioIhgEwCg
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Online kathyp

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 16356
  • Gender: Female
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2017, 04:06:36 pm »
Quote
By that we mean that the state is a rational actor in that it seeks to preserve itself and governance, it seeks to further the power and goals of the state, and the state takes steps to achieve said goals. When poly science people talk about rational actors in political science that is what we mean.

Then you are still wrong about Iran. 

Quote
I don't know a lot about Muslim endtime beliefs though but sponsoring terrorism is not an only Iranian thing.

You are correct.  My comments only went to the why part of Irans actions.  The same applies to other groups like ISIS.

Quote
Perhaps you will have to explain better how this is going to lead them to nuking everyone including themselves and how this unites the Muslim world?

As you say, you don't know much about their end times beliefs.  It was my intention to point you toward knowledge, not try to share all that I have learned over the years.

  You may investigate or not, as you wish, but I reject your knee-jerk bashing of what I say based on your misplaced idea that we must accept and embrace other ideologies if we wish to be loved back.  That's not how these folks think and your kind of thinking gets people killed.

I accept that you are not trying to be mean.  You are not capable of thinking outside the...how did you put it...garbage...that you have been fed and now regurgitate. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Psparr

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 598
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2017, 04:46:51 pm »
Here's one ace. The 2006 IBC says that a door in a place of business, can't have the glass in the door start at 54". It can start higher, and even lower. Why is that?
Because it is discriminatory against someone in a wheelchair. You can see through it but they can't.
So if you want to make an improvement to your business you also need to change all non compliant doors at the same time.
Just complete garbage!

Again this must be a local law nothing to do with the federal government.  Our place of business along with thousands of others, maybe millions, have glass top to bottom with glass side lights floor to ceiling.
https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x89d9417463b93023:0x348c48a48f189c6b!2m19!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m13!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!3m1!7e115!4shttps://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname%3D111343866742626835005%26id%3D6113182545522667698%26target%3DPHOTO!5saccess+storage+utica+ny+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e3!2s-AXtQZDXBSMw/VNZjItj_MLI/AAAAAAAAAAc/9tx7vN4RtDUdwod5OyBVEbzjI38tBrnAACJkC&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUxZvumdzUAhVEWT4KHcMqCxUQoioIhgEwCg
And that's perfectly acceptable. If you and the handicapped person can see through. It's when he can't and you can that's the problem. If the window is high enough that neither of you can see , that's acceptable as well. That's just one example of erroneous regulations that do-gooders come up with.

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3408
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2017, 05:51:17 pm »
Sorry, Ace, but that is a federal "osha" law. No local  or union involved. NC is a right to work state and has very little union, and what is here is ineffective.

I am not familiar with such a law.  In a lot of cases fines get levied when someone tries to circumvent the laws because they think they don't have merit.  I know a lot of fines were levied when machines were plugged into non compliant extension cords.  Can't say for this case.  I don't think anything that gets done in Washington is going to affect osha much.  Anyway I worked in the Carolina's for 11 years in textile mills back in the 70's.  There didn't seem to be any lack of labor unions or the power they wielded.  Remember, textile mills were concentrated in the north right where I am.  The mills went south to avoid the unions here but the unions just picked up and moved there until the products went off shore.  Automobile industry, same thing.  We hardly have labor unions here anymore because we hardly have anything left in manufacturing.  Teamsters are setting pretty because everything ships on rubber.  However many companies have gone to independent contractors to take a bite out of the teamsters union.

I don't know what to tell you iddee but if your beef is with silly nonsense laws then the effort should be to change the law to something that makes sense and not cut the budget for the program because it has flaws.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Online iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8034
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2017, 07:35:00 pm »
Sorry again, Ace, but I was born in NC. I worked the textile mills, sewing plants, trucking, and others until 1965, when I went into the Army, then until 1972 after I got out.. I never met the union until I went to Illinois in 1972. I have never worked anywhere in NC where there was a union.
OSHA and other alphabet agencies are created by DC and make their own laws. There's no changing them until DC clamps down, as Trump is doing to the EPA and others.
All I can say is, it's about time.  MAGA
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline sawdstmakr

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 7608
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2017, 07:41:10 pm »
OK Walley, what does MAGA mean?
Jim
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Online iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8034
  • Gender: Male
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3408
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2017, 08:20:05 am »
Quote
The 10 union mills - seven of which are in Roanoke Rapids, N.C.

http://www.nytimes.com/1981/10/18/business/jp-stevens-one-year-after-the-truce.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Have you seen any of these plants Walley?
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Online iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8034
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2017, 08:53:08 am »
J.P. Stevens closed the plant here in Randleman in the late 1960's.

Here is a quote from the article that sums it up well.

""''The Southern textile industry is so anti-union that industry standards are not what most people would call decent and fair,'' he said. ""

J.P. then sold out to West Point in 1988.

After 17 years of fighting, the union finally got in. 8 years later, J.P. was sold. As I said, the union was weak to non-existent here.



"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3408
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2017, 09:38:38 am »
""''The Southern textile industry is so anti-union that industry standards are not what most people would call decent and fair,'' he said. ""

J.P. then sold out to West Point in 1988.

I worked in them all iddee, The West Point Pepperal plant I worked in was in Dolthan, AL.
What you are not seeing is that the cost of the union drove the industry south and the cost of the union drove the industry off shore.  JP Stevens did go union.  The issue is wealth flows upward while the work force gets beat up.  People take the abuse for so long and then they seek help from the unions.  If the wealth was shared and the conditions were decent everyone would win.  The greed at the top is what kills businesses just like the greed at the top of our government is what is killing our country.  I am pretty sure you are not going to have a gold toilet.  I am absolutely certain the orange turd is not thinking of you or cares one iota about your problems.  The only interest he has is MDGA (Make Donald Great Again) but that won't sell any hats so he modified the monogram.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline bwallace23350

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1366
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2017, 09:40:39 am »
Quote
By that we mean that the state is a rational actor in that it seeks to preserve itself and governance, it seeks to further the power and goals of the state, and the state takes steps to achieve said goals. When poly science people talk about rational actors in political science that is what we mean.

Then you are still wrong about Iran. 

Quote
I don't know a lot about Muslim endtime beliefs though but sponsoring terrorism is not an only Iranian thing.

You are correct.  My comments only went to the why part of Irans actions.  The same applies to other groups like ISIS.

Quote
Perhaps you will have to explain better how this is going to lead them to nuking everyone including themselves and how this unites the Muslim world?

As you say, you don't know much about their end times beliefs.  It was my intention to point you toward knowledge, not try to share all that I have learned over the years.

  You may investigate or not, as you wish, but I reject your knee-jerk bashing of what I say based on your misplaced idea that we must accept and embrace other ideologies if we wish to be loved back.  That's not how these folks think and your kind of thinking gets people killed.

I accept that you are not trying to be mean.  You are not capable of thinking outside the...how did you put it...garbage...that you have been fed and now regurgitate.

Lets break this down.

Quote
By that we mean that the state is a rational actor in that it seeks to preserve itself and governance, it seeks to further the power and goals of the state, and the state takes steps to achieve said goals. When poly science people talk about rational actors in political science that is what we mean.

Then you are still wrong about Iran. ............... Nope I am right about Iran being a rational actor

 s you say, you don't know much about their end times beliefs.  It was my intention to point you toward knowledge, not try to share all that I have learned over the years.

  You may investigate or not, as you wish, but I reject your knee-jerk bashing of what I say based on your misplaced idea that we must accept and embrace other ideologies if we wish to be loved back.  That's not how these folks think and your kind of thinking gets people killed.

I accept that you are not trying to be mean.  You are not capable of thinking outside the...how did you put it...garbage...that you have been fed and now regurgitate. ........................

Can you point out where I said we have to accept and embrace anything? Iran is 100% an enemies of ours, I support their sanctions, I support inspections, what I find not bright is to not accept that they are a rational actor and will seek their own destruction bases off yours own deductions. I will wait to read from actual scholars not the links you provided. But in the mean time I will research scholars not biased accounts the fit my views of the world.

Odd you say I can't think outside of the box but all that know me find thta I never even visited the box in most of my thoughts. What is that saying about assumptions......

You are right though I am not trying to be mean and I do find you to be a very intelligible person. Never take anything I say as a true insult. This is a debate and argument and I see it as part of the tussle of ideas. If I ever offend in any personal way please let me know as that is not my intent ever.

Online kathyp

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 16356
  • Gender: Female
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2017, 11:17:09 am »
Quote
Nope I am right about Iran being a rational actor

The state and religion are one.  If the religious ideology is not rational (by our standards) then the state is not rational.

Quote
what I find not bright is to not accept that they are a rational actor and will seek their own destruction bases off yours own deductions. I will wait to read from actual scholars not the links you provided. But in the mean time I will research scholars not biased accounts the fit my views of the world.

Since you did not care to look at what I posted, I am not sure how you evaluate the bias, but I am sure you will search for unbiased scholars.  After all, they will tell you that Iran is a rational actor and you will go to bed all warm a fuzzy and safe. 

Quote
If I ever offend in any personal way please let me know as that is not my intent ever.

I am not easily offended.  I am often frustrated by a country full of people, who have the information of the world in their pockets and fail to exhibit any curiosity or care about what is going on around them. 


Why? Has always been the most important question for me to ask.  Why do people think what they think, do what they do, etc.  In our arrogance, believing that WE are the cause of everything from climate change to the attitudes and actions of other peoples, we fail to look deeper.  Failure to understand motivations means failure to plan and act in a way that is meaningful.  We fail with Iran because we do not understand their motivations. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline bwallace23350

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1366
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2017, 11:32:22 am »
Quote
Nope I am right about Iran being a rational actor

The state and religion are one.  If the religious ideology is not rational (by our standards) then the state is not rational........

Quote
what I find not bright is to not accept that they are a rational actor and will seek their own destruction bases off yours own deductions. I will wait to read from actual scholars not the links you provided. But in the mean time I will research scholars not biased accounts the fit my views of the world.

Since you did not care to look at what I posted, I am not sure how you evaluate the bias, but I am sure you will search for unbiased scholars.  After all, they will tell you that Iran is a rational actor and you will go to bed all warm a fuzzy and safe. 

Quote
If I ever offend in any personal way please let me know as that is not my intent ever.

I am not easily offended.  I am often frustrated by a country full of people, who have the information of the world in their pockets and fail to exhibit any curiosity or care about what is going on around them. 


Why? Has always been the most important question for me to ask.  Why do people think what they think, do what they do, etc.  In our arrogance, believing that WE are the cause of everything from climate change to the attitudes and actions of other peoples, we fail to look deeper.  Failure to understand motivations means failure to plan and act in a way that is meaningful.  We fail with Iran because we do not understand their motivations.

Iran is rational by its own standards. It also seeks to preserve its regime. As for your sources I don't take Reza is a source I am up in the air about. I don't count him as solid. That is why I will look else where. I do feel your pain. I do feel you have been blinded by ideology. YOu say we have the world's information at our fingertips but you provided a link to a guy who is a self proclaimed double agent and who has credibility issues. So I wonder do you partake in self enforced group think and have you ever looked out to those who disagree with you. I don't feel warm and fuzzy about Iran. They are a regional instigator. They have their reasons and I do find them to be a rational actor so I don't think they will destroy themselves or the world but will still be a problem in the world. That is why I support sanctions on them and why I support inspecting their nuclear program. You act as if I am their friend and think we should just let them be.

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3408
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2017, 12:51:29 pm »
The state and religion are one.  If the religious ideology is not rational (by our standards) then the state is not rational.


"In God We Trust"  Is this any different?  How many people "In God We Trust" want Muslims eliminated, banned, or put in their place.  Unfortunately religious ideology exist in all governments even in our country when there is suppose to be no connection between church and state.  If I were God looking down from up above I would see groups of people using his name as an excuse for killing each other.  I wonder what God thinks is rational.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Psparr

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 598
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2017, 01:15:26 pm »
That no connection between line is garbage. Show me in the constitution where it says that? It's freedom of religion, not from.

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3408
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2017, 02:13:31 pm »
Quote
AmendmentI.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

https://constitutioncenter.org/media/files/constitution.pdf
Separation of church and state was the driving force for many settlers coming to this country.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Psparr

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 598
  • Gender: Male
What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2017, 02:20:42 pm »
Meaning the government could not establish a state religion. Or force you to worship.
Or force me to bake a cake if it goes against my religious beliefs.


You are right on one level though. The government should get the bleep out of people's religions.