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Author Topic: What is going on in Europe?  (Read 1361 times)

Offline kathyp

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2017, 01:15:30 pm »
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Iran is not an irrational actor.

This is where most get it wrong.  Because of their particular religious belief and their view of their role in bringing about their beliefs end times prophecy, they are the most dangerous of all.  They will by happy to martyr the entire country for the sake of fulfilling their role and assuring their salvation. 

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Bush had it in for Saddam Hussein dating back to his father......

I know this is the popular liberal line, but it ignores history.  No point in relitigating this as you never do the homework, just repeat the talking points. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2017, 01:45:47 pm »
But lets be serious, Trump is not a threat to use nuclear weapons.
For the same reason as N Korea it is not that clear to the rest of the world.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2017, 02:05:32 pm »
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Iran is not an irrational actor.

This is where most get it wrong.  Because of their particular religious belief and their view of their role in bringing about their beliefs end times prophecy, they are the most dangerous of all.  They will by happy to martyr the entire country for the sake of fulfilling their role and assuring their salvation. 
What is this the new Reverend Moon?
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Bush had it in for Saddam Hussein dating back to his father......

I know this is the popular liberal line, but it ignores history.  No point in relitigating this as you never do the homework, just repeat the talking points.
I am certainly not going to read your history book when I lived through it.
20 years from now when there are documentaries about Trump being a whack job and pathological liar as president of United States you will still be pulling out your Republican note book taking it as history to the contrary.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2017, 03:12:38 pm »
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What is this the new Reverend Moon?

What they believe is scary enough to Muslims that their ideology has been banned in some Muslim countries.  It was even banned in Iran, at least publicly, for a time.  Again, available for you to research, but that's kinda like...work...

Ahmadinejad is one of the best known (by the west) of the 12ers and he intends to run for president of Iran again.  Read some of his speeches to the UN for a hint to his beliefs (not you Ace).  Or look at some of the 12er videos from Iran over the years.  They were meant to be seen internally, but are public now (not you Ace).

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I am certainly not going to read your history book when I lived through it.
20 years from now when there are documentaries about Trump being a whack job and pathological liar as president of United States you will still be pulling out your Republican note book taking it as history to the contrary.

You many have lived through it, but you chose to believe what you were fed.  I do not point you to opinion pieces or partisan notebooks. I point you to actual documentation from the UN and other countries.  If you do not want to read it and want to continue to regurgitate talking points, that's your choice.  People often are uninformed by choice. 

You do realize that "documentaries" are opinion pieces?   :wink:
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2017, 05:46:31 pm »
"20 years from now when there are documentaries about Trump being a whack job and pathological liar as president of United States you will still be pulling out your Republican note book taking it as history to the contrary."
You mean like the story's they tried to push about President Regan. Oh yeah, you probably believe he was a bad president also. Remember our economy for the next 20 years proved otherwise and would have continued if it were not for congress setting us back again followed by Hussein.

Jim
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Offline Acebird

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2017, 06:27:13 pm »
You mean like the story's they tried to push about President Regan. Oh yeah, you probably believe he was a bad president also. Remember our economy for the next 20 years proved otherwise and would have continued if it were not for congress setting us back again followed by Hussein.

Jim
He was an actor Jim, but he played the part of President very well.  He knew his lines and delivered them well.  The smarts came from Nancy.  I am not all that certain that the smarts from Bill didn't come from Hillary's input.  Anyhow the trickle down theory didn't work.  It will never work.  The trickle up theory works because there is only a smitten of people that are rich.  Regan did not have to deal with the bomb that the Bushes left Obama...  different worlds.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2017, 06:40:40 pm »
Seriously Kathy, the Arms Control Association?  They beg for money just like the NRA.
This blows my mind.  We trade, give, sell arms all over the world as if it is our God given right.  But if another country that we don't happen to like at the moment does it they are terrorist.  Isn't that nice.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2017, 06:50:16 pm »
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Seriously Kathy, the Arms Control Association?

Was there something in there that was incorrect?

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Anyhow the trickle down theory didn't work.  It will never work.  The trickle up theory works because there is only a smitten of people that are rich.  Regan did not have to deal with the bomb that the Bushes left Obama...  different worlds.

The term "trickle down" is a leftist term not an economic term.  Allowing people who work to keep more of their own money always works.  It has worked every time it has been tried.  Conversely, giving people money they have not earned has never solved poverty in spite of the trillions spent trying. 
Those who earn and who create are the ones who expand the economy and give an opportunity to those who wish to take advantage of it.  Those who are given what they did not earn, do not expand opportunity or the economy.   

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Psparr

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2017, 08:17:12 pm »
Ace you thinking the smarts of the Clintons came from Hillary tells me all I need to know.

Offline Acebird

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2017, 09:33:31 am »
Allowing people who work to keep more of their own money always works...  Conversely, giving people money they have not earned has never solved poverty
I agree 100% with these two statements.  The problem is with the trickle down theory the "down" people were not allowed to keep more of their earnings only the "up" people were allowed to keep more of their income and the trickle didn't happen.  The greedy rich then took the present that the "down" people paid for and moved jobs and factories off shore because there was no accountability for the gift.  So yes, when you give people, companies, corporations money with no obligations to share the wealth you make poverty worse.  You destroy the American Dream and you have more unrest which in the end burst the bubble.

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Those who are given what they did not earn, do not expand opportunity or the economy.   

It has been proven by history in many countries that the single most productive investment a country can do is to educate the population.  Certainly handing out degrees to those that didn't earn it doesn't work but providing education for those that do does work.  Unfortunately we keep getting whack jobs heading up our educational system.  They either know nothing about education (which is the worst) or they want everyone treated the same regardless of performance.  That treating everyone the same is a corporate mentality.  It exist everywhere in a company 10 million or larger and all labor unions.  The only place that you will find reward based on merit is in a small company that cannot survive without it.

Feeding the top will never work, likewise trickle down will never work.  Feeding the top is what all the underdeveloped countries do.  Feeding the poor will never hurt a developed country.  Feeding the unmotivated hurts the country.  Taking from the "down" people and giving to the "up" people un-motivates the "down" people.
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Offline iddee

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2017, 10:02:03 am »
Wow, Ace, who wrote that for you. It makes way too much sense for you to have done it.  It's exactly what the conservatives have been saying all along. Make the rules easy for business, set tariffs on imports to balance prices, cut welfare to bare essentials. Place more oversight on tax spending. Reduce foreign aid to bare essentials, food, meds, etc. NO CASH. Now get your libs to agree and you will see great progress.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline kathyp

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2017, 10:35:34 am »
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I agree 100% with these two statements.  The problem is with the trickle down theory the "down" people were not allowed to keep more of their earnings only the "up" people were allowed to keep more of their income and the trickle didn't happen.  The greedy rich then took the present that the "down" people paid for and moved jobs and factories off shore because there was no accountability for the gift.  So yes, when you give people, companies, corporations money with no obligations to share the wealth you make poverty worse.  You destroy the American Dream and you have more unrest which in the end burst the bubble.

If you have tax cuts, the people paying taxes get the cuts.  47% of the population pays no federal income tax and so there is no cut to give them.  The "greedy rich" did not get a present.  Tax money is confiscation of earnings.  If I steal your car and then give it back to you, do you consider this a gift of a car?

There is not, and should not be, an "obligation to share the wealth".  There should be an obligation to provide for yourself.  Sharing is something you do by choice.  Obligations are something forced or unavoidable. 

Companies exist to make money.  They will go where the conditions are most favorable for making money.   The US is not that country anymore. 
The jobs and benefits that people get from a company are a side effect of the company making money.  If our taxes and regulations are driving companies out of the country, then the people of the US will not benefit from profitable companies. 


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It has been proven by history in many countries that the single most productive investment a country can do is to educate the population.

I don't disagree with this.  We are currently failing.  The people who would benefit the most from a change in the way we provide and fund education, poor people supposedly represented by Democrats, are the ones losing the most.  They have the most to gain by being able to choose schools that will actually provide the opportunity for education.  I can understand why Democrats would want to keep a segment of the population stupid and poor if they can count on those votes.
The rest of your bit about education I don't understand.

   
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Feeding the top will never work, likewise trickle down will never work.  Feeding the top is what all the underdeveloped countries do.  Feeding the poor will never hurt a developed country.  Feeding the unmotivated hurts the country.  Taking from the "down" people and giving to the "up" people un-motivates the "down" people.

Actually, what 3rd world socialist countries do is confiscate the product of work. 
As for taking from the bottom, you can't.  They don't have anything to take.  What motivates people to do better is a desire to do better...and starvation....What allows them to do better is an opportunity.  What disincentivises people is giving them stuff with no expectation of then doing anything to earn stuff. 

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2017, 06:44:18 pm »
Wow, Ace, who wrote that for you. It makes way too much sense for you to have done it.  It's exactly what the conservatives have been saying all along.
It is you that labeled me a liberal, not me.  I am just someone that tries to fix things.

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Make the rules easy for business,
How so?  So they can pollute the environment and make the population suffer with more disease and cancer?

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set tariffs on imports to balance prices
,
No.  Set tariffs on imports to balance trade.  If you ship a million dollars worth of goods into this country you got to buy a million dollars worth of goods into your country from us.
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cut welfare to bare essentials.

Cutting welfare doesn't solve anything.  Kathy is right about this ... you don't give money to a healthy person that is capable of working for it you give them a job.

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Place more oversight on tax spending.

You mean the money wasted on the military even so much as the bribes that are paid in the Middle East wars.
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Reduce foreign aid to bare essentials, food, meds, etc. NO CASH.
No cash for sure but I don't see that the foreign aid budget hurts us one bit.  Businesses in this country benefit from foreign aid.
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Offline iddee

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2017, 07:01:12 pm »
    Make the rules easy for business,

How so?  So they can pollute the environment and make the population suffer with more disease and cancer?


I'm not going to try to reply to all, but to show you what I mean here is an example.

A business has a time card machine on a shelf and plugged into a receptacle. Perfectly legal. 
After about the 3rd time it gets knocked off, the owner screws it to the wall. Now, it is illegal, demanding a $3500.00 fine. It cannot be secured to the building if it is plugged in rather than being directly wired in.
Stupid laws like that make it very hard on businesses, and there are thousands of them.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline kathyp

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2017, 08:03:12 pm »
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No.  Set tariffs on imports to balance trade.  If you ship a million dollars worth of goods into this country you got to buy a million dollars worth of goods into your country from us
.

Not a fan.  They usually end up costing the consumer more and solve nothing.  Better to level the playing field in the regulation and tax field so that companies want to do business here.  Make it an advantage for the company to produce closer to the consumer.  You can't do much about cheap goods, but those things tend to take care of themselves over time.  Cars are a good example.  Both Japan and Korea found that the American consumer was willing to pay for better quality, so they stopped dumping crappy cars here.  Unfortunately, the American automakers didn't learn the same lesson until they were going bankrupt.

For the low-income consumer, cheap goods are a life saver.  They don't have the ability to pay for the higher end stuff so they need to be able to get things at a cheaper price.  This is not a bad thing.  Stores that sell cheap imports employ people.  People with jobs have a chance to move up and afford the expensive stuff eventually.

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How so?  So they can pollute the environment and make the population suffer with more disease and cancer?

It's not all or nothing.  Regulations come with cost to both the business and the consumer.  They suck money out of the economy with compliance and enforcement costs.
http://dailysignal.com/2016/05/23/20642-new-regulations-added-in-the-obama-presidency/

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No cash for sure but I don't see that the foreign aid budget hurts us one bit.  Businesses in this country benefit from foreign aid.

There are things in the foreign aid programs that help us.  There's a lot in it that does not help us.  There's a lot in the military budget that helps and plenty that doesn't.  ALL government spending needs oversight and we need to change the way we budget from year to year.  The way we do it now encourages wasteful spending so that the budget for the next year is not cut.  We need to do 0 baseline budgeting rather than budgeting based on what was spent the year before.  That's kinda like work so getting Congress to do it is not going to happen unless people demand it.   most people have no idea how or why tax money is spent, so good luck with that one.

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you don't give money to a healthy person that is capable of working for it you give them a job.

You don't give them anything other than opportunity.  Opportunity comes from haveing a strong economy.  You have to get the cart and the horse in the right order.

 



They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2017, 09:29:52 am »
Both Japan and Korea found that the American consumer was willing to pay for better quality, so they stopped dumping crappy cars here.  Unfortunately, the American automakers didn't learn the same lesson until they were going bankrupt.
The american consumer is about as fickle as you can get.  The US auto industry got killed every time they tooled up for a small car.  The consumer was going back and forth between gas gusslers and economy cars (Oil related). The perceived quality from Japan and Korea was a marketing scheme.  Their cars rusted out in half the time an american car did.  I am driving a 2005 dodge caravan with 318 thousand miles on it and it runs like a top.  23mpg hyway, 17.5 city, that is what we get out of our 2015 Kia Soul.  The dodge has a V8 and will burn the tires off from a dead stop.  The only way of burning the tires on the Kia is to slam on the brakes.  What are you driving Kathy?

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For the low-income consumer, cheap goods are a life saver. They don't have the ability to pay for the higher end stuff so they need to be able to get things at a cheaper price.

You have it wrong again.  Cheap goods are killing the low income consumer.  Prior to the crap from offshore things were made to last.  The low income consumer only had to buy something once or buy something second hand which is cheaper then the cheap goods today and they didn't have to buy it again.  Way easier to make ends meet back then as opposed to now.
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Stores that sell cheap imports employ people.  People with jobs have a chance to move up and afford the expensive stuff eventually.
Wake up Kathy, retail stores are folding up like crazy.  Nobody is getting employed.  The new yuppy is finger tip buying on line and in many cases avoiding sales tax.  The low income consumer gets screwed again both on the cost of goods and employment opportunity.  There is zero opportunity for advancement to afford higher end stuff.  That is what is missing in our economy.  Many people today can't make it past 56 years of age before they are let go and replaced by a lower earning employee.  They not only lose their income they lose their health care and sometimes life insurance at a time when it is critical.

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Regulations come with cost to both the business and the consumer.

Of course there is a price to pay.  There is also a cost of not having regulations.  I would say the costs are in favor of regulations because in most cases they are in place to save lives or reduce injuries.


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Opportunity comes from haveing a strong economy.

Huh?  We have the strongest economy in the world but we DO NOT have the opportunity we once had so your reasoning is twisted.  My father was a blue collar worker who retired with full medical coverage well into his 70's.  Didn't pay a dime for health care, hospitalization or prescriptions.  He lived better in his retirement then in his whole prior life.  That dream is GONE.  I don't see it ever returning.  Most blue collar workers today are looking at poverty if and when they retire.  That's reality.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2017, 09:47:12 am »
Stupid laws like that make it very hard on businesses, and there are thousands of them.

Reading this example it sounds like a local electrical code negotiated by a labor union to enforce job security for union labor.  Yes, there are many of these protectionist laws that came about as unions acquired power.  Keep in mind that unions were created because wealth was funneled to the top.  Exactly what is happening now.  History does repeat itself so you should know what to expect in the future.  These type of laws are not federal and I can't see how they would be affected by anything concocted in Washington.  This is something that is so basic ... if the wealth was shared in the first place there would be no need for a labor union.
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Offline Psparr

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2017, 10:35:24 am »
Here's one ace. The 2006 IBC says that a door in a place of business, can't have the glass in the door start at 54". It can start higher, and even lower. Why is that?
Because it is discriminatory against someone in a wheelchair. You can see through it but they can't.
So if you want to make an improvement to your business you also need to change all non compliant doors at the same time.
Just complete garbage!

Offline bwallace23350

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2017, 10:45:36 am »
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Iran is not an irrational actor.

This is where most get it wrong.  Because of their particular religious belief and their view of their role in bringing about their beliefs end times prophecy, they are the most dangerous of all.  They will by happy to martyr the entire country for the sake of fulfilling their role and assuring their salvation. 

Quote
Bush had it in for Saddam Hussein dating back to his father......

I know this is the popular liberal line, but it ignores history.  No point in relitigating this as you never do the homework, just repeat the talking points.

Oddly enough they have their Ayatollahs saying that the aggressive use of nuclear weapons is against their beliefs. They are rational actors and they do not think that killing off the county is in anyway their benefit. Do you have some proof to back up such a strong claim?

Offline bwallace23350

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Re: What is going on in Europe?
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2017, 10:47:00 am »
Offline kathyp
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Re: What is going on in Europe?
? Reply #23 on: June 24, 2017, 03:12:38 PM ?
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What is this the new Reverend Moon?

What they believe is scary enough to Muslims that their ideology has been banned in some Muslim countries.  It was even banned in Iran, at least publicly, for a time.  Again, available for you to research, but that's kinda like...work...

You mean banned in Sunni countries and banned by the Shah who ruled as a secular ruler?