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Author Topic: Trump`s FU world  (Read 700 times)

Offline beecanbee

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Trump`s FU world
« on: June 02, 2017, 06:34:08 pm »
The Guardian has a good read on Trump`s middle finger to the rest of the world.  Even if you don?t believe in climate change, it covers what the rest of the world is thinking.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2017/jun/01/donald-trump-just-cemented-his-legacy-as-americas-worst-ever-president

"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

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Online kathyp

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2017, 06:46:18 pm »
Lol.  I have yet to find anyone who has read that Paris agreement.  It's a piece of crap.  The Guardian is pretty far left even for Europe and so their opinion is no surprise. 

Why on earth should we care what the rest of the world thinks?  They can give their money to dictators for "clean energy" if they wish. If we choose not to, that's our business.
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline beecanbee

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2017, 07:02:19 pm »
Lol.  I have yet to find anyone who has read that Paris agreement.  It's a piece of crap.  The Guardian is pretty far left even for Europe and so their opinion is no surprise. 

Why on earth should we care what the rest of the world thinks?  They can give their money to dictators for "clean energy" if they wish. If we choose not to, that's our business.

Yes, Left-Center by mediabias.  197 UN countries, with only Syria, Nicaragua, and now the US not participating.  And true enough, it doesn`t matter what other countries think - but rather what the US does to the rest of the world.
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Online kathyp

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2017, 07:25:02 pm »
Quote
And true enough, it doesn`t matter what other countries think - but rather what the US does to the rest of the world.

You need to read it and read the other stuff it references.  The most glaring issues:

 1. there is no set reduction for countries.

  2. there is not a mechanism for enforcement.

 3. 1st world countries must spend billions transferring money and tech to 3rd world countries to help them go green, but there is no mechanism to make sure those dictators actually spend the money or use the tech as intended. 

4.two of the greatest polluters, China and India, both of whom are building 100s more coal plants with no environmental controls on them, are exempted along with all the "developing" countries.  In addition, they will qualify for some of those billions of dollars in aid. 

Additionally, it ties to the IPCC which has stated that redistribution of wealth and tech is needed to address climate change.  Not aid, but redistribution.  The IPCC seems to recognize that wealthy countries are cleaner but thinks that wealth can be given to 3rd world crap holes to encourage them to be cleaner too.  They don't seem to want to address the issue of why there are 3rd world crap holes in the first place.  Hey, I'm sure dictators will be happy to use the money as intended, right?

There's no + in this for any 1st world country except to feel good.  It is not the job of our government to make us feel good or look good to the world. 

It's also worth noting that Kyoto and Copenhagen went down the drain because they were too costly for everyone and were unenforceable.  Very few countries actually try to live up to agreements.  They sign on so they get something, or so they can say they signed on.



 
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline beecanbee

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2017, 07:33:42 pm »
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Offline beecanbee

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2017, 07:37:29 pm »
Quote
And true enough, it doesn`t matter what other countries think - but rather what the US does to the rest of the world.

You need to read it and read the other stuff it references.  The most glaring issues:

 1. there is no set reduction for countries.

  2. there is not a mechanism for enforcement.

 3. 1st world countries must spend billions transferring money and tech to 3rd world countries to help them go green, but there is no mechanism to make sure those dictators actually spend the money or use the tech as intended. 

4.two of the greatest polluters, China and India, both of whom are building 100s more coal plants with no environmental controls on them, are exempted along with all the "developing" countries.  In addition, they will qualify for some of those billions of dollars in aid. 

Additionally, it ties to the IPCC which has stated that redistribution of wealth and tech is needed to address climate change.  Not aid, but redistribution.  The IPCC seems to recognize that wealthy countries are cleaner but thinks that wealth can be given to 3rd world crap holes to encourage them to be cleaner too.  They don't seem to want to address the issue of why there are 3rd world crap holes in the first place.  Hey, I'm sure dictators will be happy to use the money as intended, right?

There's no + in this for any 1st world country except to feel good.  It is not the job of our government to make us feel good or look good to the world. 

It's also worth noting that Kyoto and Copenhagen went down the drain because they were too costly for everyone and were unenforceable.  Very few countries actually try to live up to agreements.  They sign on so they get something, or so they can say they signed on.
 

All good points, and exactly why we shoot babies instead of trying to cure their diaper rash.   :wink:
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Offline Acebird

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2017, 09:17:31 pm »
Trump is not tech savvy.  He barely can read at a 4th grade level.  He certainly cannot remember what he says.  This is a covfefe message.  Only those with IQ's of 35 or greater can read it.
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Online kathyp

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2017, 10:30:19 pm »
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All good points, and exactly why we shoot babies instead of trying to cure their diaper rash.

Nothing keeps anyone from curing diaper rash in their own country, at their own expense.  Pretty sure China can figure out how to fix their pollution problem if they want to and without our money. 
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline beecanbee

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2017, 11:20:46 pm »
Quote
All good points, and exactly why we shoot babies instead of trying to cure their diaper rash.

Nothing keeps anyone from curing diaper rash in their own country, at their own expense.  Pretty sure China can figure out how to fix their pollution problem if they want to and without our money.

True enough, and they are of course.  Unfortunately, if Trump were to get his way, the US wouldn`t.  But the good news is that several states will act on their own, and join with other countries without the help of the federal government, and thus prevent the US jobs loss as well as climate damage the US would impose on the rest of the world by Trump.  Impressive, really.
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Online kathyp

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2017, 12:57:04 am »
They are welcome to do that.  That's the advantage of having states. 

I'll challenge you on a couple of points though.  :wink:

 1. jobs:  The idea that the agreement would create jobs in the US was because it was assumed they would be in the green energy sector.  The green energy sector, especially solar, has not done well.  Additionally, why would those jobs come here when already green stuff can be produced at a fraction of the cost in other places...like China. We would lose jobs especially in manufacturing because of the added costs and regulations.  Again, those things can be done for less in exempt countries like China and India.

2. climate damage by the US.  There are others but I like graphics  :-D
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/most-polluted-countries/
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline beecanbee

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2017, 03:46:04 am »
They are welcome to do that.  That's the advantage of having states. 

I'll challenge you on a couple of points though.  :wink:

 1. jobs:  The idea that the agreement would create jobs in the US was because it was assumed they would be in the green energy sector.  The green energy sector, especially solar, has not done well.  Additionally, why would those jobs come here when already green stuff can be produced at a fraction of the cost in other places...like China. We would lose jobs especially in manufacturing because of the added costs and regulations.  Again, those things can be done for less in exempt countries like China and India.

2. climate damage by the US.  There are others but I like graphics  :-D
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/most-polluted-countries/

When talking about jobs, the focus needs to be on future jobs - not on dead or dying sectors.  Solar, clean energy, carbon sequestration, robotics, electric vehicles, zero emission x,y and z`s, etc. - just a few among many I will never have heard of, are the jobs of the future.  Coal and other fossil fuels were great past job producers, but aren`t going to provide significant additions no matter what Trump says or does.  Turning ones` back on the new technologies is handing the future jobs to countries that embrace them.  The losers are not the currently `too-rich` who own the fossil industries, but rather the youth who need to be educated to meet the demands of the future.  If the US hasn`t done well vis-a-vis other countries in developing green jobs, it simply needs to do better - not give up. My guess here, is that Trump is simply trying to find a way to pay for his tax breaks to the uber-rich.

I enjoyed the linked article, but it is quite irrelevant isn`t it?  It depicts current pollution, and without specificity to climate change drivers.  Current pollution is irrelevant except as a benchmark, since those more polluted countries are not the ones who have withdrawn.

And, more relevant statistics would be on climate change drivers, such as CO2 per capita, where the US contributes close to three times that of China, and if memory serves me right, is the third highest in the world.  The higher two having far lower populations, thus making the US really stand out as a major climate change gas contributor.
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Online kathyp

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2017, 11:30:51 am »
Quote
When talking about jobs, the focus needs to be on future jobs - not on dead or dying sectors.  Solar, clean energy, carbon sequestration, robotics, electric vehicles, zero emission x,y and z`s, etc. - just a few among many I will never have heard of, are the jobs of the future.  Coal and other fossil fuels were great past job producers, but aren`t going to provide significant additions no matter what Trump says or does.  Turning ones` back on the new technologies is handing the future jobs to countries that embrace them.  The losers are not the currently `too-rich` who own the fossil industries, but rather the youth who need to be educated to meet the demands of the future.  If the US hasn`t done well vis-a-vis other countries in developing green jobs, it simply needs to do better - not give up. My guess here, is that Trump is simply trying to find a way to pay for his tax breaks to the uber-rich.

Not sure where you got the idea this had to do with coal.  It has more to do with manufacturing, and even more to do with not throwing money at dictators.

As a country, we spent billions on subsidies to green companies and most of them have collapsed.  There are various reasons for that and among them is China turning out cheap solar panels.  We are also not the top at robotics so while there is much to learn there, it is more likely that we buy, than do much in the development field. 
I agree that we need to be teaching for future fields.  In this country, we still insist that every child take college prep type schooling and convince the kids that if they don't go to a 4-6 year school and get a degree, they are failures. 

Where would should be encouraging more future job specific training, we are instead subsidizing college with cheap government loans and leaving public schools in the failing putrid mess they are so as not to disturb the teachers unions. 

Quote
And, more relevant statistics would be on climate change drivers, such as CO2 per capita, where the US contributes close to three times that of China, and if memory serves me right, is the third highest in the world.  The higher two having far lower populations, thus making the US really stand out as a major climate change gas contributor.

Ah...You assume that CO2 has something to do with the current religion of climate change   :wink:  Do you ever wonder why all the globalists are behind the whole climate change thing?  Every movement needs a religion for the masses. 

Edit:
Quote
My guess here, is that Trump is simply trying to find a way to pay for his tax breaks to the uber-rich.

Which tax cuts are those?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 11:51:30 am by kathyp »
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Online kathyp

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2017, 11:42:26 am »
http://unfccc.int/files/essential_background/convention/application/pdf/english_paris_agreement.pdf

This is 27 pages.  You need to look at the things it references also.  Think back on some of the things the EPA and BLM have done in the last few years and intent becomes more clear.  Marry this with the UN 2030 agenda and....
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline beecanbee

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2017, 03:30:56 pm »
... Ah...You assume that CO2 has something to do with the current religion of climate change   :wink:  Do you ever wonder why all the globalists are behind the whole climate change thing?  Every movement needs a religion for the masses.

Kathy, I make it a rule to not try to convince people who are driven by religion.  It is a fool`s errand.  So sorry.  Please have a good day.
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Online kathyp

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2017, 03:55:25 pm »
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Kathy, I make it a rule to not try to convince people who are driven by religion.  It is a fool`s errand.  So sorry.  Please have a good day.

You misunderstand.  It is the religion of climate change to which I refer.  If you want to convince the world (globalists) to be on the same page so you can control them, you need a common belief (religion).  That whole opiate of the masses thing.  It's not just about sedating them, but also about getting them addicted.
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline Acebird

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2017, 06:50:04 pm »
When talking about jobs, the focus needs to be on future jobs - not on dead or dying sectors.  Solar, clean energy, carbon sequestration, robotics, electric vehicles, zero emission x,y and z`s, etc. - just a few among many I will never have heard of, are the jobs of the future.  Coal and other fossil fuels were great past job producers, but aren`t going to provide significant additions no matter what Trump says or does.  Turning ones` back on the new technologies is handing the future jobs to countries that embrace them.  The losers are not the currently `too-rich` who own the fossil industries, but rather the youth who need to be educated to meet the demands of the future.  If the US hasn`t done well vis-a-vis other countries in developing green jobs, it simply needs to do better - not give up. My guess here, is that Trump is simply trying to find a way to pay for his tax breaks to the uber-rich.

Man did you hit the nail on the head.
Kathy's idea that we can't compete with china is dead wrong.  We can't compete with them if we want to match their manual labor to our manual labor.  We certainly can compete and I have done it.  Unfortunately people don't accept technology.  They are afraid of it.  It is not what they know.  They (managers) would rather beat heads on a manual assembly line.  Today that doesn't work.  Because there is a standard in this country on how people should be treated.  So they ship factories to Mexico or buy from China even if it cost them more.  It is what they (managers) feel comfortable with.
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Online kathyp

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2017, 07:53:20 pm »
Quote
Man did you hit the nail on the head.
Kathy's idea that we can't compete with china is dead wrong.  We can't compete with them if we want to match their manual labor to our manual labor.  We certainly can compete and I have done it.  Unfortunately people don't accept technology.  They are afraid of it.  It is not what they know.  They (managers) would rather beat heads on a manual assembly line.  Today that doesn't work.  Because there is a standard in this country on how people should be treated.  So they ship factories to Mexico or buy from China even if it cost them more.  It is what they (managers) feel comfortable with.

I think you are right about a lot of that.  Here's where we disagree though:  The harder you make business in any place, the more apt business is to move.  Apple assembles it's 900 dollar phones in China for a reason. 
Now business going to other countries may not be a bad thing in the long run.  the 2 dollars a day the Chinese girl makes putting phones together is wealth to her.  Enough of that and you create a middle class, as is being created in China.  The middle class is the least likely to tolerate government oppression in the long run.  In a couple of generations, China may go through some major changes in politics.
That's not too helpful to us right now.

The other place I would disagree is on who fights tech.  Management will have a job no matter what.  Tech takes care of a lot of labor headaches.  Workers, in particular, unions, fight tech.  There are a number of reasons.  They blame job loss on tech and many unions have their roots in Marx who taught labor that tech took from them the ownership of their labor and gave it to the ruling class sort of changing them to the machine.  Marx and others believed that Technological Unemployment would be the future. 
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline beecanbee

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2017, 03:44:38 am »
PolitiFact has a measured review of Trumps speach... well worth a read in these fact misunderstood times.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/jun/01/fact-checking-donald-trumps-statement-withdrawing-/
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Offline Acebird

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2017, 12:49:57 pm »
Apple assembles it's 900 dollar phones in China for a reason. 
And the reason is industry is controlled by the government.  The government did not have to ask the workers what the best thing for china would be.  A cell phone is highly automated like all electronic devices.  It is not the first device to go to a foreign country and have that manufacture build the automation.  All of our electronic devices are manufactured in foreign countries who have invested heavily into automation.  Proof positive that we are stupid.
Quote
Now business going to other countries may not be a bad thing in the long run.

It certainly is.  It pulls revenue out of the countries tax base and it adds to the welfare cost of our population.  It is a double wammy.

Quote
The other place I would disagree is on who fights tech.  Management will have a job no matter what. 
 
Yes, but it won't be the same managers because someone who can get what they want out of a human work force will fail miserably when they try to manage technology.  These type of people make technology fail.  Sometimes it is on purpose.  When they have success at crushing technology the work force stays manual.  Then in a very short time (less then ten years) the company either folds up or goes off shore.  Neither has to happen.  We are still the strongest country for innovation.  But we give away the gravy (Manufacturing).  The giving away of the gravy will erode away our position in the world.
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Online kathyp

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2017, 12:59:24 pm »
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PolitiFact has a measured review of Trumps speach... well worth a read in these fact misunderstood times.

yes, worth a read.  One thing it doesn't address is the UN (slush) fund.  If someone can point to a UN program that has been well run and not funded dictators rather than helped regular folks, I'd be interested to know about it. 
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline beecanbee

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2017, 05:16:43 pm »
Yet another logical fallacy on display.  Quite off-putting.  But then this is just the Coffee House, where one isn`t required to be logical.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/loaded-question

"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Online kathyp

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2017, 09:49:28 pm »
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Yet another logical fallacy on display.  Quite off-putting.  But then this is just the Coffee House, where one isn`t required to be logical.

Not a logical fallacy, but  I'll give you the loaded question bit.  You didn't answer it.  The UN runs tons of programs and most have been mired in some kind of corruption, or the money has been given to governments to be used for the people and it has not been.  It has been used to support dictators.  So again, why would we give billions to a UN program and not know how it is going to be administered? 
?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline beecanbee

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Re: Trump`s FU world
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2017, 05:30:49 am »
...  So again, why would we give billions to a UN program and not know how it is going to be administered? 

I try to stay away from fallacious arguments, particularly when they are irrelevant to the major issues at hand (for clarity, that being how to address climate change).  If you think the UN wastes US contributions for climate change research or for mitigation, please demonstrate that.  Links - from non-biased sources please.  A blanket assumption that the UN is bad, doesn`t cut it.

I have searched, but have not found any evidence.  I did find a UN report on their fraud detection practices with recommendations on how to strengthen their programs (non-specific to Climate Change) https://www.unjiu.org/en/reports-notes/JIU%20Products/JIU_REP_2016_4_English.pdf .  And I found another (a Forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2011/08/23/the-alarming-cost-of-climate-change-hysteria/2/#58c0eb77340a ) article that dealt with US programs.)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 04:00:25 pm by beecanbee »
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson