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Author Topic: Manchester Atrocity  (Read 3832 times)

Offline kathyp

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #80 on: June 03, 2017, 11:17:53 am »
Quote
Kathy, in your comment about the role of The Coffee House you appear a little confused, as at no time have I mentioned this particular sub-forum. My earlier comments were directed at the sub-forums 'The Constitution' and 'The 2nd Amendment' only, these being political subject areas, and subjects highly specific to the United States.

Discussing political subjects - as with religion - is pretty-much guaranteed to engender division and stimulate conflict, for people tend to adopt highly polarised opinions on such matters - far more so that in other subject areas.
The fact that they are included within a list of forums for discussion, is - in a sense - an invitation to become embroiled within subject areas for which there will NEVER be consensus. 

You are correct, they are separate.  If you have been on other sites, beekeeping or other hobbies, you may notice that politics bleeds into the main discussion on a regular basis.  Beemaster sought to avoid this by creating separate sections for these discussions.

I am not sure why you think there should be a consensus on much of anything.  There certainly isn't in beekeeping.  Again, the reason these are separate discussion is so that people who are bothered by them can avoid them. You are not required to read or participate, but you are welcome to if you wish.  I am not sure how that impacts your free speech.  Maybe that idea means something different to you?

 



They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Online iddee

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #81 on: June 04, 2017, 12:21:29 pm »
Hey, Cider, this is why the good guys need guns. 8 minutes is time to kill and wound many.

http://100percentfedup.com/londonbridge-unarmed-london-police-ran-away-from-knife-wielding-terrorists/
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #82 on: June 04, 2017, 12:57:01 pm »
All patrol police need is a taser or a dart gun to bring perpetrators down.
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Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #83 on: June 04, 2017, 03:54:13 pm »
Hey, Cider, this is why the good guys need guns. 8 minutes is time to kill and wound many.

http://100percentfedup.com/londonbridge-unarmed-london-police-ran-away-from-knife-wielding-terrorists/
[/quote)
Hey iddee
If they had guns/assault weapons how many would have been killed? The average concealed gun carrier would be crapping themselves in fear of becoming a target of the terrorists or the police when they arrive. How would the police know who is whom? Get real! In a fluid situation there can be lots of unexpected consequences, better off to stay in your armchair iddee :sad:
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Online iddee

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #84 on: June 04, 2017, 04:36:23 pm »
Ace, how fast can you reload a taser when there are 3 or more assailants?

Cider, Yeah, you sit in your armchair while 7 die and 50 are wounded. I would rather have 6 conceal carriers and hope the outcome would be better.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #85 on: June 04, 2017, 06:10:22 pm »
Iddee
I'll treat that with the contempt it deserves.
Yours in dispair
Cider :sad:
Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...

Online iddee

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #86 on: June 04, 2017, 06:27:19 pm »
I'm not surprised, and I would bet you would be screaming if a half dozen concealed carriers had been there and reduced it to 3 dead and 8 wounder, if one of the wounded were hit by a cc bullet.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Anybrew2

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #87 on: June 04, 2017, 08:16:35 pm »
I'm with you iddee
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 10:50:42 pm by Anybrew2 »

Online Dallasbeek

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #88 on: June 04, 2017, 08:18:45 pm »
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline kathyp

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #89 on: June 04, 2017, 09:45:43 pm »
me too.

One CC carrier could have taken out the guy trying to get into the bar and one less person might have been stabbed in that establishment. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Online Dallasbeek

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #90 on: June 05, 2017, 01:11:49 am »
Some people just need killing and a clean head shot settles the issue (and sometimes sends the problem child where he belongs). Sorry if that's cold-blooded, but people who wear suicide vests don't usually plan on tomorrow, and the sooner the day ends for them the beter it is for some other folks.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline beecanbee

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #91 on: June 05, 2017, 05:49:54 am »
I hadn`t heard of Community Police, so wiki to the rescue?

Quote
It is also accepted that PCSOs do not have to intervene in high risk situations and it is reasonable if they decide to withdraw from one. This is due to the non-confrontational purpose of their role.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_community_support_officer#Equipment

ref...

http://100percentfedup.com/londonbridge-unarmed-london-police-ran-away-from-knife-wielding-terrorists/
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #92 on: June 05, 2017, 09:48:13 am »
Ace, how fast can you reload a taser when there are 3 or more assailants?
How many police and how many rounds did it take to kill 3 assailants without guns?

How many average citizens with a cc could hit the broad side of a barn in that situation?  Trained police have died proving a target range is completely different than an individual with nothing to lose coming at you in full attack.
Not for nothing in this situation where there was no guns and the attackers were out numbered a can of bear spray would have disabled the attackers and the patrons could have brained them with a bar stool.

It is my understanding that some patrons got hit by friendly fire.  The gun enthusiast call that collateral damage.
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Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #93 on: June 05, 2017, 01:24:34 pm »
Pepper spray and tasers are not superior to knives.  I have personally witnessed a police training session in which a determined man continued fighting after being sprayed with mace twice.  He was able to get in several potentially lethal strikes before being subdued with paintball rounds delivered to lethal areas of the body (remember, a training session). 

Most police officers are not gun aficionados.  Many train only to meet qualifying minimums.  Said minimum qualification is not all that stringent.  Many recreational shooters are far superior in shooting skill than the average police officer.   There are popular competitive shooting drills that mimic real life defensive situations.  There are many, many highly qualified civilian shooters that take continuing defensive shooting classes, in which they are put in realistic scenarios in which they must choose whether to fight, witness, or flee, and shooting in a wide variety of situations that require instant critical judgment.   These games and training courses are, in some cases, more stringent than the training programs of many U.S. police training courses.  Of course, there are exceptions on both sides, but your assumption that a police officer is always more qualified than a citizen is absolutely absurd.  And lest you forget, many citizens are military veterans with a high degree of training behind them.  Which brings me to another absurd assumption, that veterans are all in need of psychiatric treatment.  A purely bigoted viewpoint.
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #94 on: June 05, 2017, 01:28:59 pm »
Pepper spray and tasers are not superior to knives.  I have personally witnessed a police training session in which a determined man continued fighting after being sprayed with mace twice.  He was able to get in several potentially lethal strikes before being subdued with paintball rounds delivered to lethal areas of the body (remember, a training session). 

Most police officers are not gun aficionados.  Many train only to meet qualifying minimums.  Said minimum qualification is not all that stringent.  Many recreational shooters are far superior in shooting skill than the average police officer.   There are popular competitive shooting drills that mimic real life defensive situations.  There are many, many highly qualified civilian shooters that take continuing defensive shooting classes, in which they are put in realistic scenarios in which they must choose whether to fight, witness, or flee, and shooting in a wide variety of situations that require instant critical judgment.   These games and training courses are, in some cases, more stringent than the training programs of many U.S. police training courses.  Of course, there are exceptions on both sides, but your assumption that a police officer is always more qualified than a citizen is absolutely absurd.  And lest you forget, many citizens are military veterans with a high degree of training behind them.  Which brings me to another absurd assumption, that veterans are all in need of psychiatric treatment.  A purely bigoted viewpoint.
Thanks Hops.
Well said.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #95 on: June 05, 2017, 01:45:11 pm »
Pepper spray and tasers are not superior to knives.  I have personally witnessed a police training session in which a determined man continued fighting after being sprayed with mace twice.  He was able to get in several potentially lethal strikes before being subdued with paintball rounds delivered to lethal areas of the body (remember, a training session). 
Bear spray is designed to turn away grizzlies.  No human being is going to continue fighting after being hit with it.
https://www.pepper-spray-store.com/pages/mace-vs-pepperspray

Quote
Many recreational shooters are far superior in shooting skill than the average police officer.

And that would amount to less then 1% who own guns.  That is what you want for a police force?  Not me.
Quote
but your assumption that a police officer is always more qualified than a citizen is absolutely absurd.
  I didn't say always.
Quote
Which brings me to another absurd assumption, that veterans are all in need of psychiatric treatment.
I never said that.  Today most veterans have never seen combat.  I said there is a problem (just like with VietNam) with fighting in foreign countries when we are NOT at war with them and have no purpose for being there.
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #96 on: June 05, 2017, 01:52:32 pm »
Realllllly Brian.
I thought you lived in New York where they have all of those druggies pulped up with who knows what. Did you forget about the guy that was shot in the face with pepper spray and still continued to attack the police officer last year?
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Online iddee

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #97 on: June 05, 2017, 02:43:55 pm »
Thanks, Hops. Good post.

Ace, there are documented instances of soldiers fighting after taking a bullet through the heart, and you don't think a drug crazed criminal can withstand a shot of spray that may have hit him with his eyes closed or missed his eyes totally? Maybe you have been smoking or shooting something even stronger than what he has.

1%?  HA, HA, HA. I was out shooting the local cops when I was 12. I would say closer to 99% of regular sport shooters.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #98 on: June 05, 2017, 03:27:30 pm »
Ace, how fast can you reload a taser when there are 3 or more assailants?
How many police and how many rounds did it take to kill 3 assailants without guns?

How many average citizens with a cc could hit the broad side of a barn in that situation?  Trained police have died proving a target range is completely different than an individual with nothing to lose coming at you in full attack.
Not for nothing in this situation where there was no guns and the attackers were out numbered a can of bear spray would have disabled the attackers and the patrons could have brained them with a bar stool.

It is my understanding that some patrons got hit by friendly fire.  The gun enthusiast call that collateral damage.

Ace,
 I fully agree except for the bear spray (not much call for it in UK)  Unfortunately one person was accidentally shot.

If you have screaming terrorists wearing suicide vests (now known to be fake) running at you shooting with an assault weapon (in the US they are easily available) Most c/con  permit holders, some undoubtedly elderly and infirm and that has previously been stated couldn't hit the proverbial barn door. Can you imagine the 'collateral damage' before they were gunned down by the police as they assume they are part of the ongoing incident.
PS The police in London have already shot and killed, the proverbial 'head shot' so loved by the c/con afficcionardos, The Brazillian electrician was on his way to work on the tube, they thought he had a bomb in his backpack. So anyone seen waving a gun around in that situation would last milliseconds.
cider
Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...

Offline bwallace23350

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #99 on: June 05, 2017, 04:17:51 pm »
Ace, how fast can you reload a taser when there are 3 or more assailants?
How many police and how many rounds did it take to kill 3 assailants without guns?

How many average citizens with a cc could hit the broad side of a barn in that situation?  Trained police have died proving a target range is completely different than an individual with nothing to lose coming at you in full attack.
Not for nothing in this situation where there was no guns and the attackers were out numbered a can of bear spray would have disabled the attackers and the patrons could have brained them with a bar stool.

It is my understanding that some patrons got hit by friendly fire.  The gun enthusiast call that collateral damage.

Ace,
 I fully agree except for the bear spray (not much call for it in UK)  Unfortunately one person was accidentally shot.

If you have screaming terrorists wearing suicide vests (now known to be fake) running at you shooting with an assault weapon (in the US they are easily available) Most c/con  permit holders, some undoubtedly elderly and infirm and that has previously been stated couldn't hit the proverbial barn door. Can you imagine the 'collateral damage' before they were gunned down by the police as they assume they are part of the ongoing incident.
PS The police in London have already shot and killed, the proverbial 'head shot' so loved by the c/con afficcionardos, The Brazillian electrician was on his way to work on the tube, they thought he had a bomb in his backpack. So anyone seen waving a gun around in that situation would last milliseconds.
cider

Oddly enough with all the mass shootings in the US not one instance of what you have said has happened on a large scale.