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Author Topic: Manchester Atrocity  (Read 3830 times)

Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2017, 03:21:19 pm »
Guns have nothing to do with murder. It is no more than a tool.

But it is a tool that gets used for murder more often then not because there is not yet enough restrictions on who gets the right for having them.
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Online iddee

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2017, 04:18:49 pm »
100% wrong.

If it is the most used, it is because of the ease and efficiently, NOT accessibility.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2017, 04:30:06 pm »
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No he doesn't.  The rights are not inclusive for all parts of our country.  Having the right to carry and having the right to use it are two different things.  What makes people nervous is that some of of the people that are given permits don't know the difference.  In some instances this results in a citizen with rights becoming a criminal with no rights.

It is true that different states have different laws, but the SCOTUS has found that ALL states must allow gun ownership in a reasonable way.  So yes, we have the right to be armed wherever we are even if those rights are different from state to state.

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Military is law enforcement.

It is not US law enforcement except to the extent it is sworn to defend the constitution.  To that end, it might well be something far different that law enforcement in the US if it ever came down to it.  The purpose of the military is to kill people and break things...in other countries.

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Could you explain why you feel it necessary to carry a concealed firearm? Are you scared of the people around you, of your local Nurse, Doctor would you take a weapon into an hospital/church/school or is it more about ego? The feeling of power that other people don't know your carring a concealed gun and you could easily kill them at anytime! Not that I think you would contemplate such a thing, but presumably such a thing has happened. Just sayin'as someone posted on this thread.

I, too, have a concealed carry permit.  We all have different reasons for getting them.  Fear is not among mine.
[/b]

Then what is it?I suppose there may be the odd Puma/Bear that needs putting down that is aroaming downtown Boring! :rolleyes:
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Online iddee

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2017, 04:44:06 pm »
Cider, why do you keep a spare tire in your car? Are you deathly afraid of having a flat, or is it just because you want to be prepared if you do?

Do you have a fire extinguisher in your home?  WHY?  Is it just paranoia?
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2017, 06:40:04 pm »
33 % of gun deaths in America are suicides.  Suicide is a mental illness.  The mentally ill should not get guns even though it is just another tool.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-deaths/
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2017, 06:49:43 pm »
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But it is a tool that gets used for murder more often then not because there is not yet enough restrictions on who gets the right for having them.

Other than suicide, most gun murders are committed by gang bangers and another criminal who already are prohibited from gun ownership by law.  About 80% of the homicides by gun are gang related according to the CDC.  Do you think more gun laws will impact the illegal use of firearms?  If laws were going to change things for criminals wouldn't the laws on the books have done that already?

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Then what is it?

It is as Iddee says, insurance.  I will probably never need to shoot anyone, but if I do, I can.  I have no problem/fear hiking, camping, or wandering my property alone because I know I have this additional means of protecting myself. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline kathyp

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2017, 06:54:56 pm »
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33 % of gun deaths in America are suicides.  Suicide is a mental illness.  The mentally ill should not get guns even though it is just another tool.

This is not a problem brought about by those of us who are supporting the 2nd amendment.  This is a problem that exists in the medical/mental health community because of reporting restrictions.  There is no good mechanism for either the mental health professional or the law enforcement to act.
If there were to be changes in laws they would need to be very narrowly constructed or everyone who went to the doc and complained of feeling down would end up on a no sell list.  Because we can't trust the anti-gun nuts we are cautious about allowing more laws that offer the chance for abuse. 

Obamas SSI order was one such gun grab.  Even the ACLU was against it. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2017, 07:11:58 pm »
If laws were going to change things for criminals wouldn't the laws on the books have done that already?
Kathy the laws on the books are greatly influenced by the NRA trying to gain membership.  It is politically driven by money.  They sing a song about protecting people's "rights" and that improves their bottom line.  I think if was more difficult and more expensive to own certain types of guns it would reduce their numbers.  Reducing their numbers will reduce crime.

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I have no problem/fear hiking, camping, or wandering my property alone because I know I have this additional means of protecting myself.

The reality is trained professionals (law enforcement) have a hard time protecting themselves and others even though most carry a gun.  It is not easy to win a gun battle when the opposition thinks they have nothing to lose and you do.  Most likely Kathy if someone wanted you dead while you were walking your property you would be even if you had your gun.  The only thing that might change that scenario is if it was more difficult for this nut case to get his hands on a gun.  Then yours might give you some protection.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2017, 07:40:12 pm »

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The reality is trained professionals (law enforcement) have a hard time protecting themselves and others even though most carry a gun.  It is not easy to win a gun battle when the opposition thinks they have nothing to lose and you do.  Most likely Kathy if someone wanted you dead while you were walking your property you would be even if you had your gun.  The only thing that might change that scenario is if it was more difficult for this nut case to get his hands on a gun.  Then yours might give you some protection.

If they feel they have nothing to lose, you may be right.  But like I once told a man who threatened me, they'd better make the first shot count because after that it's my turn.  He backed off, by the way, so I guess he felt like he had something to lose. 
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline kathyp

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2017, 08:15:53 pm »
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Kathy the laws on the books are greatly influenced by the NRA trying to gain membership.  It is politically driven by money.

The NRA lobbies on our behalf.  That's what we pay them to do, so yes money is important.  If not for them people like you would have all the influence.  Since we realize there is strength in numbers and that fighting people like you takes money, we are members. 

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The reality is trained professionals (law enforcement) have a hard time protecting themselves and others even though most carry a gun.  It is not easy to win a gun battle when the opposition thinks they have nothing to lose and you do.  Most likely Kathy if someone wanted you dead while you were walking your property you would be even if you had your gun.  The only thing that might change that scenario is if it was more difficult for this nut case to get his hands on a gun.  Then yours might give you some protection.

yes, if someone wants you dead they will probably kill you.  Since most crimes are committed either for goods or for something like sexual assault, I am not too worried that a sniper is out there trying to kill me. The gun may or may not make a difference, but having one on me evens up the odds and as Dallas points out, having one is often enough to dissuade attack.  If not, at least I will have given myself the best chance.   
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2017, 08:54:08 am »
The NRA lobbies on our behalf.  That's what we pay them to do, so yes money is important.

The problem is "our behalf" includes all the nut cases.  They make no determination on who should have guns.  They sing a song that if guns are restricted than only criminals will have them.  This is completely false.  What they are actually doing is guaranteeing that criminals will have them.  What they should be doing is guaranteeing that responsible people have them and criminals don't.  The whole attitude about gun laws would change drastically if the NRA was responsible.
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2017, 12:07:37 pm »
Brian,
You are right. If the NRA had their way, there would be not gun laws, only accountability for your actions when you use them in the wrong way.
It does not matter what laws you put on the books, only the good people are going to obey them.
Jim
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Offline Psparr

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2017, 12:22:35 pm »
Here's something that explains the gun thing pretty well.

Offline kathyp

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2017, 12:49:47 pm »
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You are right. If the NRA had their way, there would be not gun laws, only accountability for your actions when you use them in the wrong way.
It does not matter what laws you put on the books, only the good people are going to obey them.

This is the only constitutional right that must be pre-approved by the State.  Suppose we decided that some speech was potentially harmful and required a license to speak?  Or that some religions were potentially harmful and required a license to practice our beliefs. 
We could probably make that argument using the same anti-gun logic with Islam right now.  Should we do a background check and license all Mulsim speakers and Imams because we know that some people in the religion are violent?

What if we required all press to be pre-approved by the government because some press might do harm to the nation by not being accurate, or even by lying?  What if we banned the reading of Pravda because it's Russian and they are not our friends? 

The mayor of Portland wants to ban a pro-Trump rally because some racist nutter killed a couple of people;  not in the name of Trump, but in the name of his Norse heritage.  The mayor, in his infinite wisdom, decided that a pro-Trump rally would be harmful to the psyche of the city after the tragedy.  Yeah....he's a leftist.  They are the ones who always want to restrict your rights in the name of your safety and comfort. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline herbhome

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2017, 05:46:54 pm »
.[/quote]

Other than suicide, most gun murders are committed by gang bangers and another criminal who already are prohibited from gun ownership by law.  About 80% of the homicides by gun are gang related according to the CDC.  Do you think more gun laws will impact the illegal use of firearms?  If laws were going to change things for criminals wouldn't the laws on the books have done that already?

Quote

This is absolutely true. These street corner drug dealers and gang bangers get their guns from the same place they get the drugs-the black market.
Neill

Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2017, 06:25:57 pm »
Brian,
You are right. If the NRA had their way, there would be not gun laws, only accountability for your actions when you use them in the wrong way.
It does not matter what laws you put on the books, only the good people are going to obey them.
Jim

Jim I'm reading more song writing.  If 33% of gun deaths are suicide then are you including them in the good people or not?  The NRA thinks they should have guns (as long as they pay their dues).  There is no accountability for the NRA they blame it on the people not the gun.  Well OK I can sing that song, now lets not give the guns to those people.  Sometimes those people kill other people before they take their own life.  Can you honestly tell me that you are not in favor of lowering the gun deaths in this country by 33% simply by not letting people with mental illness have guns?
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2017, 06:39:03 pm »
I just went back to this page.  It is not 33% it is 66%.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-deaths/
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2017, 11:22:53 pm »
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There is no accountability for the NRA they blame it on the people not the gun.

It is the people, not the gun.  I have a bunch and not one has ever jumped up and shot someone.  If you have an issue with mental illness and guns then you need to talk to the medical establishment and those who support HIPAA.  I don't think you'll find any sane gun owners who think it's a good idea for nutty people to have guns.

That said, nuts kill with hammers, knives, bats, and their hands.  The real solution is to reopen mental institutions and lock up the nuts.  If you are not willing to do that, they will keep killing...Just as the one here killed two and seriously injured one on public transportation...with a knife.  Unfortunately no one else on the train was armed.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline jvalentour

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2017, 12:47:20 am »
Brian Cardinal,
Who do you want to decide the insane?
Today, I would say you are insane...  (of course you would say you don't want a gun).  But what about your other rights?
Do you trust politicians to decide sanity?

Offline beecanbee

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2017, 05:40:52 am »
... The mayor of Portland wants to ban a pro-Trump rally because some racist nutter killed a couple of people;  not in the name of Trump, but in the name of his Norse heritage. 

Actually - it seems from his court appearance, that he did it the name of free speech.  Certainly agree that he is a nutter, and not representative of Trumpers.
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