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Author Topic: Manchester Atrocity  (Read 4669 times)

Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #140 on: June 13, 2017, 11:01:11 am »
a free people MUST be ready, willing and able to defend their own lives and beliefs with whatever weapons are at their disposal.  That is the core of the 2nd amendment.

Absolute total BS.  Where do you draw the line between defend and terrorism?  Should we all have a stash of nucs and biological weapons in our basement?  Our for fathers had not a clue what the future would bring.  They never once thought of an air plane, missile or nuclear war head as a defense.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #141 on: June 13, 2017, 11:46:35 am »
Poor, poor Ace. You really need to get some help. Ceasar never dreamed of guns, either, but they came about and wars have been won against them. When a free people give up and quit fighting, they are no longer free.

First, with the best weapons they can get, then right down to rocks and spears if that is all they have. A free people will always fight to the end.
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Online Dallasbeek

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #142 on: June 13, 2017, 11:50:42 am »
a free people MUST be ready, willing and able to defend their own lives and beliefs with whatever weapons are at their disposal.  That is the core of the 2nd amendment.

Absolute total BS.  Where do you draw the line between defend and terrorism?  Should we all have a stash of nucs and biological weapons in our basement?  Our for fathers had not a clue what the future would bring.  They never once thought of an air plane, missile or nuclear war head as a defense.

Whether the forefathers envisioned such devices and weapons or not is irrelevant.  Had they had them available, they would have used airplanes, missiles, repeating rifles or whatever (excluding nukes) in the rebellion.  If you would not, it says more about you than it does about them.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Online kathyp

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #143 on: June 13, 2017, 12:51:55 pm »
Quote
Where do you draw the line between defend and terrorism?

I would posit that if you do not know the difference then you are one of those people who should not be armed.  I am good with that.

Quote
Had they had them available, they would have used airplanes, missiles, repeating rifles or whatever (excluding nukes) in the rebellion.

The first repeating rifles were developed in the 1600's.  The Chinese used balloons in war as early as the 3rd century.  missiles were used in the 4th century.

Since the founders were historians and pretty smart guys, and did not exempt or list any acceptable weapons, it is reasonable to think the were not inclined to exempt any weapons. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #144 on: June 13, 2017, 01:41:43 pm »
it is reasonable to think the were not inclined to exempt any weapons.

It is reasonable for you but not for me.  The Indians had weapons.  Superior weapons have always been used for aggression and concurring other lands and people.  Hardly ever used for defense.
BTW the colonist had inferior weapons to the British empire.  We won our independence because they didn't have air planes to supply their troupes.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 04:03:11 pm by Acebird »
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Offline Psparr

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #145 on: June 13, 2017, 02:06:55 pm »
As many times we have proven them otherwise, the rabid anti-gun plebes continue to use the tired, old platitude that "everyone approves of hunting guns, but no one approves of war guns".  The 2nd amendment has nothing whatsoever to do with hunting, and everything to do with survival of the personal liberty established in this country.  That is a fact.

Last week, the Democratic Socialist Club at University of Florida openly advocated the beheading of Republicans.  That in and of itself is total justification for the 2nd Amendment.  For when the future leaders of this country (and who doubts that current students are the future leaders or, rather, rulers) advocate the execution of anyone outside their mindset, a free people MUST be ready, willing and able to defend their own lives and beliefs with whatever weapons are at their disposal.  That is the core of the 2nd amendment.
And the sad part is, they will argue with you over this post and believe in their heart they are right.

Online kathyp

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #146 on: June 13, 2017, 02:54:51 pm »
Quote
BTW the colonist had inferior weapons to the British empire. 

You make an excellent argument for an armed population.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #147 on: June 13, 2017, 03:32:30 pm »
>t is the bullet that determines the kill not the gun.  You are not going to drop a deer with bird shot.

Bird shot is not a bullet.  It is shot.  For that you need some kind of scatter gun, but yes, you can kill a deer quite dead with bird shot at 20 yards.  At 20 yards it is hard to beat a 12 gauge for deadliness.  It is the gun that determines many things about the bullet.  It's diameter, it's possible velocity and energy and these things determine how deadly it is at what range.  There is a lot of difference in deadliness between a .22LR and a .220 swift though the bullet is almost the same diameter.  There is even more difference between a .223 and a .378 Weatherby or a .50 BMG.  The odds of surviving a shot from a .223 are much higher than the odds of surviving a .30-06.  FBI data shows that 322 people were murdered with rifles in 2012.  No differentiation was made between "Assault rifles" and other rifles.  Crime, including murder, is at a 20 year low.  http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/21/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/  https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-26/us-crime-rate-rises-slightly-remains-near-20-year-low The Homicide rate is at a 51 year low. https://mises.org/blog/fbi-us-homicide-rate-51-year-low.  So I'm having trouble understanding what the hoopla is about...
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #148 on: June 13, 2017, 04:17:33 pm »
You make an excellent argument for an armed population.

This country will not be taken over by bullets.  The bullets we have will not protects us from attacks.  It hasn't so far and certainly will not in the future.  Osama Bin Laden and Russia have demonstrated how easily it is to attack us.  We will be outdone because of a stupefied population that is now in the making.  Bullets, guns and armament will not stop the attacks.  And we will lose.
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Online Dallasbeek

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #149 on: June 13, 2017, 04:21:59 pm »

That is because back East is where all the people are.  In my area it happens on an annual basis.  Where you live Mike you could strap an AR15 on a turret in a jeep and drive from one side of the state to the other and never hit anybody.  That is not the case on the East coast.

It is the bullet that determines the kill not the gun.  You are not going to drop a deer with bird shot.

I cannot imagine such abysmal ignorance.  Ace, have you ever been west of New York?  Do you really believe the nonsense you write?  The stuff you right about beekeeping is so right on, but when you write about guns you seem to lose any semblance of objectivity.

Respects
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #150 on: June 13, 2017, 04:39:40 pm »
Ace, have you ever been west of New York?
Just came from Cody Wyoming, Yellowstone, and the Grand Tetons.  Amazing beautiful country.  Interesting demographics ... the billionaires from CA are pushing out the millionaires (mostly ranchers) with almost no middle class.  It is pretty much filthy rich serviced by the dirt poor.  All the ranchers have guns.  They thought they needed them to protect their property but they didn't anticipate the billionaires.

In my life I have been to LA, Santiago, The Grand Canyon, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, South Dakota.  Not all of the west but some of it.  Now I have added Wyoming and Montanan.

Bird shot is practically useless in Upstate NY.  The woods and brush are to thick.
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Online Dallasbeek

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #151 on: June 13, 2017, 05:13:35 pm »
Woods and brush are reclaiming much of the land cleared by the early settlers in the east. We go to New England frequently and I have seen the difference in the past 30 years. Woods now stand where an open field once lay on a piece of land in Connecticut where my wife once lived.  Giant maples still stand around the perimeter, but I don't know what kind of trees are in the field.  Huge stones dug from the land form a fence around the field.  The owner rebuilt the fence about 20 years ago and said he wore out two comealongs doing it.  Some of the boulders were the size of Volkswagens.   Imagine the frontiersmen who cleared the land 400 or more years ago with just a mule or two.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #152 on: June 13, 2017, 05:35:29 pm »
This year with all the rain the vegetation is unbelievable thick.  We used to see the high power lights from the bill board sign shine through the tree.  Now I can't see anything at midnight.  The sign is totally dark.

This is the sign when it was first put there.
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Friday%2013%20Devide%202012/Thedevide4Friday-13002.jpg

Now you can't see it from the house.
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20flowers/Plants019.jpg
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Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #153 on: June 13, 2017, 06:31:16 pm »
a free people MUST be ready, willing and able to defend their own lives and beliefs with whatever weapons are at their disposal.  That is the core of the 2nd amendment.

Absolute total BS.  Where do you draw the line between defend and terrorism?  Should we all have a stash of nucs and biological weapons in our basement?  Our for fathers had not a clue what the future would bring.  They never once thought of an air plane, missile or nuclear war head as a defense.
Absolute nonsense!  The line between defense and terrorism is perfectly clear.  It always will be.  The Democratic Socialist Club's statements of using guillotine to behead Republicans is terrorism. 
Winter is coming.

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Offline Psparr

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #154 on: June 13, 2017, 06:50:23 pm »
You make an excellent argument for an armed population.

This country will not be taken over by bullets.  The bullets we have will not protects us from attacks.  It hasn't so far and certainly will not in the future.  Osama Bin Laden and Russia have demonstrated how easily it is to attack us.  We will be outdone because of a stupefied population that is now in the making.  Bullets, guns and armament will not stop the attacks.  And we will lose.
Ace I actually agree with you, but I'm sure we won't agree on whose ideas will bring us down.

Offline Jim 134

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #155 on: June 15, 2017, 04:50:32 am »
a free people MUST be ready, willing and able to defend their own lives and beliefs with whatever weapons are at their disposal.  That is the core of the 2nd amendment.

Absolute total BS.  Where do you draw the line between defend and terrorism?  Should we all have a stash of nucs and biological weapons in our basement?  Our for fathers had not a clue what the future would bring.  They never once thought of an air plane, missile or nuclear war head as a defense.


   Just curious are you going to use a catapult to launch your own nucs ?




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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #156 on: June 15, 2017, 08:39:59 am »
Just curious are you going to use a catapult to launch your own nucs ?

A catapult?  You can buy a drone almost anywhere that can deliver a dirty bomb with pin point accuracy.  That fact makes me a little nervous.  The FAA has restrictions on the use of these "toys" but has no way to enforce the restrictions until after the law is broken.  Pretty much like the use of any weapon.  The disturbing thing about a drone is you haven't got a clue where the attacker is located.  Not so much with a gun.
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Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #157 on: June 15, 2017, 10:50:07 am »
Just curious are you going to use a catapult to launch your own nucs ?

A catapult?  You can buy a drone almost anywhere that can deliver a dirty bomb with pin point accuracy.  That fact makes me a little nervous.  The FAA has restrictions on the use of these "toys" but has no way to enforce the restrictions until after the law is broken.  Pretty much like the use of any weapon.  The disturbing thing about a drone is you haven't got a clue where the attacker is located.  Not so much with a gun.

I guess I'll go to the corner 7-11 and snag a military drone capable of carrying a dirty bomb weighing a hundred pounds or more.  Oh, I'll take a dozen pounds of plutonium to go with that, please.  What?  You're out of plastique?  I guess I'll have to go to the hardware store for that.
Winter is coming.

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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #158 on: June 15, 2017, 12:26:11 pm »
>Not so much with a gun.

The gun could be a mile away...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_recorded_sniper_kills
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Offline Jim 134

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #159 on: June 16, 2017, 07:47:59 am »
       Nucs it's not even in the dictionary. This kind of Nuke is in a dictionary. If you would like some used up nuke rod from a fuel plant ? There many truckloads of it ..About half-a-mile where I keep my honeybees.  :wink:


         BEE HAPPY Jim 134   :smile:
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/