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Author Topic: Manchester Atrocity  (Read 4441 times)

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #120 on: June 07, 2017, 10:54:44 am »
Ace, why is it someone should look for a less than lethal means of defense? If someone is hell bent on hurting you or someone else, they have it coming and on the plus side, it will save the taxpayers a lot of money.

  Well if two people came at you with knives and you shot one of them and he went down.  The other one runs away from you.  You do not have the right to shoot him in the back running away and you do not have the right to go over to the downed attacker and finish him off.  This is how a hero can turn into a criminal.
You're right on that one, Ace.  And the cases in which that happens are so rare that they make the news all over the country, even internationally.  The vast majority of self defense shootings are nothing like that at all, but are legally and morally justifiable, and never make the news because it does not fit the anti-gun networks' agenda.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #121 on: June 07, 2017, 01:40:00 pm »
Hops, I gave the example because the way the question was put to me it appears to me that Psparr has the intent to kill without even being in the situation.  I suspect he has a hand gun and I hope he never gets confronted.  I fore see it becoming an ugly mess.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #122 on: June 07, 2017, 01:51:54 pm »
The vast majority of self defense shootings are nothing like that at all, but are legally and morally justifiable, and never make the news because it does not fit the anti-gun networks' agenda.

I know you don't agree with me but I feel that the restrictions help make the defenses shootings legal and justifiable.  I will go back to the NRA fighting for EVERYONE should have a hand gun based on the second amendment is the worst enemy for your cause.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #123 on: June 07, 2017, 05:15:14 pm »
I would guess that 99% of the time when a gun is used to hold off a criminal, no shots are fired and no report is made.
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Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #124 on: June 08, 2017, 10:48:51 am »
Percentage may be slightly off, but not by much.  There is no way to track the numerous instances wherein a good guy used a gun to stop a crime but without a shooting, and police were never called.

Scaring the bad guy away is an admirable result, and the one most common, with the caveat that if you do draw your weapon, you'd better be prepared to use it if the scare factor does not work.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #125 on: June 08, 2017, 01:23:33 pm »
I certainly was not implying you should not be prepared to use it,  but you should also be prepared to not use it or use it as the situation unfolds.  But my point is that most of the times that a gun protects someone it is without firing it and often without a police report.  No one wants to get arrested for threatening someone (even a criminal) with a gun.  A gung ho DA may put you in jail...
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #126 on: June 08, 2017, 03:35:30 pm »
Quote
I will go back to the NRA fighting for EVERYONE should have a hand gun based on the second amendment is the worst enemy for your cause.

Please find me an NRA quote to back what you are saying.

Quote
I would guess that 99% of the time when a gun is used to hold off a criminal, no shots are fired and no report is made.

I am sure you are correct.  There's also an unknowable % of things that never happen because the bad guys drive by and see an NRA sticker on the car and move on. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #127 on: June 08, 2017, 06:07:57 pm »
I certainly was not implying you should not be prepared to use it,  but you should also be prepared to not use it or use it as the situation unfolds.  But my point is that most of the times that a gun protects someone it is without firing it and often without a police report.  No one wants to get arrested for threatening someone (even a criminal) with a gun.  A gung ho DA may put you in jail...
I know that's you point.  I was simply trying to help clarify that thought for those who believe that every gun owner in USA is on a mission to gun down poor helpless criminals.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #128 on: June 08, 2017, 08:02:26 pm »
As much as my state if VERY blue, it is very gun friendly.  The other day the dog and I went for a hike and I open carried.  On the way out of the canyon, I ran into another lady starting down.  As we stood and chatted about our dogs she never batted an eye that I was obviously armed.  This is as it should be. 
I just wonder how long it will last in my state.....
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #129 on: June 09, 2017, 09:36:22 am »
There's also an unknowable % of things that never happen because the bad guys drive by and see an NRA sticker on the car and move on.

OH please Kathy that is like putting a sticker on your car that you donated to the police benevolent association thinking your not going to get a ticket.

So what does it mean that everyone living is such a sparse area of the country as a canyon is comfortable with you wearing a gun?  Do you honestly believe that would be the case in areas of high population?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 09:55:20 am by Acebird »
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #130 on: June 09, 2017, 09:54:17 am »
Quote
I will go back to the NRA fighting for EVERYONE should have a hand gun based on the second amendment is the worst enemy for your cause.

Please find me an NRA quote to back what you are saying.
Here is their site.
https://membership.nrahq.org/5245/default.aspx?src=camo&ek=T7BJ11GS&gclid=CjwKEAjwjunJBRDzl6iCpoKS4G0SJACJAx-VslKluG3-pLdllAFIn1xjR-lHg9w0rcx7f6aPc271ChoCIPnw_wcB

Absolutely no vetting.  All it takes is a credit card (that could be stolen).  It is the National "Rifle" Association but most of it's lobbying is for war machines and hand guns.  Why, because nobody has any objections to a shot gun, deer rifle or a varmint rifle.  Most states have regulations on where you can use them.  Most of the deaths associated with these types of guns are accidents where hunters shoot hunters or other family members.  Occasionally they get lucky and hit an animal their hunting for and then there is a big celebration.
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Offline beecanbee

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #131 on: June 09, 2017, 10:45:53 am »
I would guess that 99% of the time when a gun is used to hold off a criminal, no shots are fired and no report is made.

I agree.  I did that myself once.  As soon as the twerps saw my hunting rifle being passed to me thru the car window, they took off running.  Didn`t even need to point it.
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Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #132 on: June 09, 2017, 10:50:26 am »
Quote
I will go back to the NRA fighting for EVERYONE should have a hand gun based on the second amendment is the worst enemy for your cause.

Please find me an NRA quote to back what you are saying.
Here is their site.
https://membership.nrahq.org/5245/default.aspx?src=camo&ek=T7BJ11GS&gclid=CjwKEAjwjunJBRDzl6iCpoKS4G0SJACJAx-VslKluG3-pLdllAFIn1xjR-lHg9w0rcx7f6aPc271ChoCIPnw_wcB

Absolutely no vetting.  All it takes is a credit card (that could be stolen).  It is the National "Rifle" Association but most of it's lobbying is for war machines and hand guns.  Why, because nobody has any objections to a shot gun, deer rifle or a varmint rifle.  Most states have regulations on where you can use them.  Most of the deaths associated with these types of guns are accidents where hunters shoot hunters or other family members.  Occasionally they get lucky and hit an animal their hunting for and then there is a big celebration.

First of all, why would ANY organization, such as the NRA, the National Hot Rod Association, the Society for Creative Anachronism or even the Demorat party have the need to "vet" membership?  It's freedom of association, Brian.  Like-minded people gathering together.  It's possible some stolen credit card numbers have been used to pay for Demorat party membership, too.

Please provide your source for "Most of the deaths associated with these types of guns are accidents where hunters shoot hunters or other family members". 

"Occasionally they get lucky and hit an animal their [sic] hunting for and then there is a big celebration."  is absurd.  Simply absurd.  You might have been that poor of a shot during your hunting days, and celebrated when your blind luck resulted in a hit, but most hunters have enough respect for their game to make an accurate shot, and take pride in their skill.
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Offline bwallace23350

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #133 on: June 09, 2017, 11:54:51 am »
"Occasionally they get lucky and hit an animal their [sic] hunting for and then there is a big celebration."  is absurd.  Simply absurd.  You might have been that poor of a shot during your hunting days, and celebrated when your blind luck resulted in a hit, but most hunters have enough respect for their game to make an accurate shot, and take pride in their skill.


I don't hunt but I know a lot of hunters. They take pride in their shooting. First off on a practical level they want the kill as clean as possible so they don't have to chase and track a wounded but dying animal. Second most hunters actually respect wildlife and don't like to see them suffer, and finally for another practical reason most hunters eat what they kill. Cleaning a gut shot or other bad shot kill makes it harder to clean and makes it smell

Offline kathyp

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #134 on: June 09, 2017, 11:58:40 am »
Quote
So what does it mean that everyone living is such a sparse area of the country as a canyon is comfortable with you wearing a gun?  Do you honestly believe that would be the case in areas of high population?

They should be.  That's the point. 


Quote
You might have been that poor of a shot during your hunting days, and celebrated when your blind luck resulted in a hit, but most hunters have enough respect for their game to make an accurate shot, and take pride in their skill.

 :grin:



They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #135 on: June 09, 2017, 02:04:45 pm »
most hunters have enough respect for their game to make an accurate shot, and take pride in their skill.

I would say that about bow hunters for sure.
Year after year we get the great white hunters in the Adirondacks  coming up from the city (east coast).  Some get lost in the woods and have to be rescued.  Some blast away at noise which most often are the ones shooting their friends and family.  Or if you are in a hunting party you hear rounds zinging over your head because of some darn fool shooting in the trees.  Hunting season is the most dangerous time to enter the woods up here.  I wouldn't mind going bow hunting.  I kind of chuckle at the idea of a high powered rifle with a scope against a defenseless animal being called a sport.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 02:16:07 pm by Acebird »
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #136 on: June 09, 2017, 02:22:11 pm »
Kathy, when I was a kid I could hit a frog 12 ft away with a target arrow.  We ate a lot of fresh frog legs when I was a kid.  Hitting one that was under water took quite a bit of practice.  You have to compensate for the refraction angle. :wink:
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #137 on: June 13, 2017, 09:49:22 am »
> It is the National "Rifle" Association but most of it's lobbying is for war machines and hand guns.

"War machines"?  I assume you mean the most popular rifle in the US?  The AR15?  Since most riflemen in the US are buying them it would make sense that an association of riflemen (which is what the NRA is) would want to defend their right to own the most popular rifle...  I'm still trying to understand the appeal of the AR15, but I think I'm beginning to get it.  It's a very modular system where you can buy interchangeable barrels and parts.  You can have several different calibers that are useful for different purposes and just pop them on and off.  That concept is appealing.  However, I think they are ugly and they are of little use to me personally.  I recently went to a gun show and almost everything there was AR15s and parts for them.  I realized then that I really don't find any guns interesting that were designed since the 19th century.   I much prefer single shots, bolt actions, lever actions and revolvers.  I have never found semi-autos appealing at any level.

>Why, because nobody has any objections to a shot gun, deer rifle or a varmint rifle.

Luckily, though I've never understood why.  A handgun is a defensive weapon.  It's design criteria is defend yourself by stopping a threat.  It was not designed to kill and usually doesn't succeed at killing the majority of the time.  If you get shot by a pistol you have a 70% chance of survival.  If you get shot with a deer rifle you have a 1% chance of survival.  Because deer rifles are designed to kill a basically human sized animal quickly and humanely.  The deer rifles are all based off of WWII and WWI designed battle rifles that were originally designed to be offensive weapons to kill humans.  Assault rifles (M16 etc.) were designed to wound the enemy as opposed to WWI and WWII rifles that were designed to kill the enemy.  The AR15 is a semi auto version of an assault rifle.  So it's a basically a wimpy version of a wimpy gun.  As Jeff Cooper would say, "a poodle shooter".   So the anti gun people are all about trying to outlaw guns that were designed to wound while ignoring guns that were designed to kill.  But then thinking rationally was never high on the priorities of that group.

>Most states have regulations on where you can use them.  Most of the deaths associated with these types of guns are accidents where hunters shoot hunters or other family members.  Occasionally they get lucky and hit an animal their hunting for and then there is a big celebration.

Having hung out with hunters all my life and never known any hunter who shot anyone I think that would be a claim very hard to substantiate.  Only a couple of times in my life have I even read an account in the news where a hunter killed a hunter and it was always from somewhere back East and made national news... it was never a local story.
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Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #138 on: June 13, 2017, 10:47:20 am »
As many times we have proven them otherwise, the rabid anti-gun plebes continue to use the tired, old platitude that "everyone approves of hunting guns, but no one approves of war guns".  The 2nd amendment has nothing whatsoever to do with hunting, and everything to do with survival of the personal liberty established in this country.  That is a fact.

Last week, the Democratic Socialist Club at University of Florida openly advocated the beheading of Republicans.  That in and of itself is total justification for the 2nd Amendment.  For when the future leaders of this country (and who doubts that current students are the future leaders or, rather, rulers) advocate the execution of anyone outside their mindset, a free people MUST be ready, willing and able to defend their own lives and beliefs with whatever weapons are at their disposal.  That is the core of the 2nd amendment.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #139 on: June 13, 2017, 10:51:11 am »
Only a couple of times in my life have I even read an account in the news where a hunter killed a hunter and it was always from somewhere back East and made national news... it was never a local story.

That is because back East is where all the people are.  In my area it happens on an annual basis.  Where you live Mike you could strap an AR15 on a turret in a jeep and drive from one side of the state to the other and never hit anybody.  That is not the case on the East coast.

It is the bullet that determines the kill not the gun.  You are not going to drop a deer with bird shot.
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