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Author Topic: Manchester Atrocity  (Read 3614 times)

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #100 on: June 05, 2017, 05:19:08 pm »
Ace, how fast can you reload a taser when there are 3 or more assailants?
How many police and how many rounds did it take to kill 3 assailants without guns?

How many average citizens with a cc could hit the broad side of a barn in that situation?  Trained police have died proving a target range is completely different than an individual with nothing to lose coming at you in full attack.
Not for nothing in this situation where there was no guns and the attackers were out numbered a can of bear spray would have disabled the attackers and the patrons could have brained them with a bar stool.

It is my understanding that some patrons got hit by friendly fire.  The gun enthusiast call that collateral damage.

Ace,
 I fully agree except for the bear spray (not much call for it in UK)  Unfortunately one person was accidentally shot.

If you have screaming terrorists wearing suicide vests (now known to be fake) running at you shooting with an assault weapon (in the US they are easily available) Most c/con  permit holders, some undoubtedly elderly and infirm and that has previously been stated couldn't hit the proverbial barn door. Can you imagine the 'collateral damage' before they were gunned down by the police as they assume they are part of the ongoing incident.
PS The police in London have already shot and killed, the proverbial 'head shot' so loved by the c/con afficcionardos, The Brazillian electrician was on his way to work on the tube, they thought he had a bomb in his backpack. So anyone seen waving a gun around in that situation would last milliseconds.
cider

Oddly enough with all the mass shootings in the US not one instance of what you have said has happened on a large scale.

Could you be a little more specific? ie what part of what I said and what you mean by "large scale"
cider
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Offline bwallace23350

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #101 on: June 05, 2017, 05:26:46 pm »
If you have screaming terrorists wearing suicide vests (now known to be fake) running at you shooting with an assault weapon (in the US they are easily available) Most c/con  permit holders, some undoubtedly elderly and infirm and that has previously been stated couldn't hit the proverbial barn door. Can you imagine the 'collateral damage' before they were gunned down by the police as they assume they are part of the ongoing incident........................ This part. There have been lots of active shooter situations where the police stormed in and there have not been lots of collateral damage.

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #102 on: June 05, 2017, 05:45:50 pm »
If you have screaming terrorists wearing suicide vests (now known to be fake) running at you shooting with an assault weapon (in the US they are easily available) Most c/con  permit holders, some undoubtedly elderly and infirm and that has previously been stated couldn't hit the proverbial barn door. Can you imagine the 'collateral damage' before they were gunned down by the police as they assume they are part of the ongoing incident........................ This part. There have been lots of active shooter situations where the police stormed in and there have not been lots of collateral damage.
)[/b]

The collateral damage would probably come from the 'helpful shooters' who mistake people for barn doors! Would you want to be seen shooting by police who have seconds to decide whom to target? Especially after a suicide bomber had just killed a lot of men, women and children. I'm afraid I would not fancy your chances.
cider
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Offline iddee

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #103 on: June 05, 2017, 06:23:40 pm »
If there are several CC's there, the incident will be over and calm before the police ever arrive, so there won't be any police shooting helpers.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Psparr

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #104 on: June 05, 2017, 08:33:21 pm »
So in cider and aces world we should only defend ourselves or others with sporks and bear spray?

I think I'll take my chances with the crazy old vets with guns.

What would be an absolutely wonderful case study, and put to rest the idea that liberals have it figured out, would be to split the country in two. Have conservatives live and govern in one half and liberals live and govern in the other. And see what happens.

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #105 on: June 05, 2017, 09:17:26 pm »
Pepper spray and tasers are not superior to knives.  I have personally witnessed a police training session in which a determined man continued fighting after being sprayed with mace twice.  He was able to get in several potentially lethal strikes before being subdued with paintball rounds delivered to lethal areas of the body (remember, a training session). 
Bear spray is designed to turn away grizzlies.  No human being is going to continue fighting after being hit with it.
https://www.pepper-spray-store.com/pages/mace-vs-pepperspray

Quote
Many recreational shooters are far superior in shooting skill than the average police officer.

And that would amount to less then 1% who own guns.  That is what you want for a police force?  Not me.
Quote
but your assumption that a police officer is always more qualified than a citizen is absolutely absurd.
  I didn't say always.
Quote
Which brings me to another absurd assumption, that veterans are all in need of psychiatric treatment.
I never said that.  Today most veterans have never seen combat.  I said there is a problem (just like with VietNam) with fighting in foreign countries when we are NOT at war with them and have no purpose for being there.
I havepersonally witnessed effective fighting by a man after being sprayed twice with mace, which is 10% capsasin pepper spray.  Are you calling me a liar?
Bear spray is also pepper spray, only 2% capsasin.  As is Halt II dog spray, 2% capsasin.  Mace is 10% capsasin.  Pepper spray can be effective when deployed correctly, and under good conditions.  It is NOT a cure-all against crime. Police carry mace, and/or a taser, but also a firearm.  Why?  Because they know that less-than-lethal weapons can fail at the worst possible moment.   I carry bear spray when in the woods, but I also carry a magnum revolver.   I carry Halt II dog spray when walking my dog in town, but I also carry a firearm.   I have had to spray a couple dogs, both times before I began carrying.  THe first time, it was effective against a black lab.  He ran back home after a short burst to the face.  The second time it was less than effective against a pit bull mix, even after the full can was sprayed in its face.  My dog got chewed up and still bears the scars on his throat.  It was a neighbor with a pistol that saved my dog's life.

"And that would amount to less then 1% who own guns."  What is your source? 
what is your point?  Regardless, even if your "statistic" is anywhere near accurate, 1% of millions is still a substantial number.

Just because a veteran has never seen combat does not mean that he/she has not been trained in firearms.  Many have received advanced training, but have never seen combat.   One of my instructors also trains federal law agencies and local police forces.  She was initially trained by the USMC.  She has never seen combat.  Most police officers have never fired their weapons on the job either. 
Winter is coming.

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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #106 on: June 05, 2017, 09:29:55 pm »
Ace,
 I fully agree except for the bear spray (not much call for it in UK)  Unfortunately one person was accidentally shot.
That doesn't mean it doesn't exist and the foot police couldn't carry a canister of it or even the bar tender having one under the counter.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #107 on: June 05, 2017, 09:38:14 pm »
I havepersonally witnessed effective fighting by a man after being sprayed twice with mace, which is 10% capsasin pepper spray.  Are you calling me a liar?
I am not calling you a liar you are just not comparing apples to apples.  Mace is not bear spray.  Bear spray is meant to deter a grizzly.  Pit bulls are pups compared to a grizzly.  Yes, you use mace on labs.  Mace is a joke.  You use it to keep St Bernard's from pooping on your lawn.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #108 on: June 05, 2017, 09:42:27 pm »
Most police officers have never fired their weapons on the job either.

Those are the ones that live to retirement. :wink:
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Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #109 on: June 06, 2017, 05:33:38 am »
If there are several CC's there, the incident will be over and calm before the police ever arrive, so there won't be any police shooting helpers.
Iddee
Still waiting for info of CCs stopping a terroist incident, especially 72yr old myopic ones.
Cider
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Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #110 on: June 06, 2017, 09:07:53 am »
So in cider and aces world we should only defend ourselves or others with sporks and bear spray?

I think I'll take my chances with the crazy old vets with guns.

What would be an absolutely wonderful case study, and put to rest the idea that liberals have it figured out, would be to split the country in two. Have conservatives live and govern in one half and liberals live and govern in the other. And see what happens.
Isn't that what the GT is trying to do?
Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #111 on: June 06, 2017, 11:02:56 am »
I havepersonally witnessed effective fighting by a man after being sprayed twice with mace, which is 10% capsasin pepper spray.  Are you calling me a liar?
I am not calling you a liar you are just not comparing apples to apples.  Mace is not bear spray.  Bear spray is meant to deter a grizzly.  Pit bulls are pups compared to a grizzly.  Yes, you use mace on labs.  Mace is a joke.  You use it to keep St Bernard's from pooping on your lawn.
Apples to apples;
Bear spray is only 2% capsasin.  MACE is available in up to 10% capsasin.  Joke that!  Bear spray is deployed in a fog spray that annoys a curious or bluffing bear enough to give you (hopefully) time to evacuate.  It probably will not stop a seriously charging bear.  Mace is deployed in a stream intended to get in the assailant's eyes and nose.  As already discussed, it is not always effective against a determined (or high on PCP or meth) man.

I spend time in bear country, both black bear and grizzly, every year.  I carry bear spray.  I know how to use it, I know what's in it.  I have also practiced with mace.  I know what's in it and how to use it.  I also carry a gun.  I also practice know how to use it, too. 

We already know that you used a shotgun for hunting, and that you gave it up.  You might  be able to defend yourself,  if you had one available.  But I would wager that you have never carried any type of pepper spray product at any level of capsasin content, and that your lecturing is only so much ignorant blustering.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #112 on: June 06, 2017, 01:12:47 pm »
Apples to apples;
Bear spray is only 2% capsasin.  MACE is available in up to 10% capsasin.  Joke that!  Bear spray is deployed in a fog spray that annoys a curious or bluffing bear enough to give you (hopefully) time to evacuate.  It probably will not stop a seriously charging bear.  Mace is deployed in a stream intended to get in the assailant's eyes and nose.  As already discussed, it is not always effective against a determined (or high on PCP or meth) man.

Ok you win, I stand corrected.  Pepper spray, mace is more powerful than bear spray and is better used in self defense situations.  In the case of a police officer trying to subdue an attacker there might be some damage a determined individual could do.  I can't believe any person will be an effective attacker if they got hit with pepper spray and you are trying to leave and not engage that person.
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Offline bwallace23350

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #113 on: June 06, 2017, 03:34:48 pm »
If you have screaming terrorists wearing suicide vests (now known to be fake) running at you shooting with an assault weapon (in the US they are easily available) Most c/con  permit holders, some undoubtedly elderly and infirm and that has previously been stated couldn't hit the proverbial barn door. Can you imagine the 'collateral damage' before they were gunned down by the police as they assume they are part of the ongoing incident........................ This part. There have been lots of active shooter situations where the police stormed in and there have not been lots of collateral damage.
)[/b]

The collateral damage would probably come from the 'helpful shooters' who mistake people for barn doors! Would you want to be seen shooting by police who have seconds to decide whom to target? Especially after a suicide bomber had just killed a lot of men, women and children. I'm afraid I would not fancy your chances.
cider

Yeah that does not happen for some reason. There is not a lot of collateral damage from people who can't shoot. Typically it is only the highly trained or desperate who fire back. Your scenario just does not happen and I say this as a person who things guns should be regulated a lot more than they are.

Online kathyp

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #114 on: June 06, 2017, 03:41:28 pm »
Quote
Just because a veteran has never seen combat does not mean that he/she has not been trained in firearms.  Many have received advanced training, but have never seen combat.   One of my instructors also trains federal law agencies and local police forces.  She was initially trained by the USMC.  She has never seen combat.  Most police officers have never fired their weapons on the job either. 

I never saw combat but you can bet the USMC didn't let me carry without making sure I spent a lot of time on the range with various weapons and showed proficiency in all of them.

Quote
Iddee
Still waiting for info of CCs stopping a terroist incident, especially 72yr old myopic ones.
Cider

We have been fortunate not to have so many incidents to allow for a test.  most of the attacks we have had, have been done in gun free zones.  Ft Hood, San Bernardino, etc.  Boston was not stopped by anyone including the armed police that were there.  In attacks other than terrorism, most take place in gun free zones.  Orlando nightclub was also a gun free zone.

http://crimeresearch.org/2016/09/uber-driver-in-chicago-stops-mass-public-shooting/
Some other links in here.

http://rare.us/rare-politics/issues/guns-rare-politics/the-hero-who-stopped-the-st-cloud-terrorist-reminds-us-that-armed-citizens-are-the-best-defense-against-domestic-attacks/

http://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/2016/12/29/20-times-bad-guys-guns-stopped-armed-citizens-2016/
In this one you have some of those wobbly old people and a couple of kids defending themselves.

http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/12-times-mass-shootings-were-stopped-by-good-guys-with-guns/

These are only a few.





?Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.?


― George Orwell, 1984

Offline iddee

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #115 on: June 06, 2017, 04:17:30 pm »
Thank You, Kathy. I knew they were there, but didn't consider it worth my time searching them down.  Some of the recent posts I have read makes me wonder what mentality we are debating with here.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #116 on: June 06, 2017, 04:23:51 pm »
Thank You, Kathy. I knew they were there, but didn't consider it worth my time searching them down.  Some of the recent posts I have read makes me wonder what mentality we are debating with here.

I wonder that too :cry:
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Offline Psparr

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #117 on: June 06, 2017, 08:36:13 pm »
Ace, why is it someone should look for a less than lethal means of defense? If someone is hell bent on hurting you or someone else, they have it coming and on the plus side, it will save the taxpayers a lot of money.

Offline Anybrew2

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #118 on: June 07, 2017, 02:30:33 am »
Mmmmm I have used capsasin spray in anger against Baddies and work colleagues alike.(it generally helped as it caused panic but sometimes just blind rage too) We were trained to work through the pain and near blindness of the spray to complete the task at hand, which was usually an arrest and handcuffing of a colleague. At the same time after being sprayed we would complete other tasks like Baton strikes and or find safety.
Its great stuff most of the time......not all the time.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Manchester Atrocity
« Reply #119 on: June 07, 2017, 08:31:14 am »
Ace, why is it someone should look for a less than lethal means of defense? If someone is hell bent on hurting you or someone else, they have it coming and on the plus side, it will save the taxpayers a lot of money.

99% of the time I agree with you but there is always that oops.  We live in a country that has rights.  One of those rights is a jury of your peers.  We do not have the right to be judge and jury on an individual basis even when the evidence is pretty convincing.  You do have the right to protect yourself but not the right to kill the person because you are angry.  How could that happen?  Well if two people came at you with knives and you shot one of them and he went down.  The other one runs away from you.  You do not have the right to shoot him in the back running away and you do not have the right to go over to the downed attacker and finish him off.  This is how a hero can turn into a criminal.
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