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MEMBER & GUEST INTERACTION SECTION => THE COFFEE HOUSE ((( SOCIAL - ROOM ))) => Topic started by: kathyp on July 01, 2017, 04:21:07 pm

Title: My solution to funding health care
Post by: kathyp on July 01, 2017, 04:21:07 pm

1. Give every man, woman, and child citizen and legal resident 1 million dollars to put in an HSA. They can either use it for insurance or pay cash for care. If they die, it can roll over to their spouse, children, or another family member. If there is no family, it goes back to the treasury. If they leave the country, they forfeit the money.
2. get rid of Medicaid except for the very ill and very poor who might go through even the million dollars.
3. Exempt seniors from the plan and allow them to keep Medicare.
4. Regulate insurance companies as we regulate public utilities so they don't jack up rates knowing everyone has a million dollars to spend.
It's not a perfect free market plan, but it gets the government out of healthcare, saves money, and gives people choice.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: cidersabuzzin on July 01, 2017, 05:47:44 pm
"keeps the government out of the health care business" who regulates the insurance companies? do you seriously believe the insurance / health care companies would not find a way to raise prices?
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: kathyp on July 01, 2017, 06:29:15 pm
Quote
do you seriously believe the insurance / health care companies would not find a way to raise prices?

That was brought up to me and that is why I added to the plan that the insurance companies be regulated as we regulate PUCs.  Different places fo this in different ways, but my favorite is to have a citizen commission that has to approve all rate increases.  That means the company has to go before the commission and justify the rate increase. 

As a practical matter, there isn't much difference between insurance companies taking more or government taking more.  Your NHS is very expensive.  You pay for that if you are paying taxes.
This plan would also allow people who are healthy to pay out of pocket for what they use.  For those who chose insurance of any kind, it gives them the negotiating power to shop for the best price and forces insurance companies to compete for those dollars.  That's something many don't do now because they are paid by way of employer policies or government pools.  Being forced to compete for dollars would cause them to offer multiple types of plans at better prices...just a auto insurers do. 

Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: beecanbee on July 01, 2017, 08:01:21 pm
Health care, much like national defense, IMO - should to be truly national, single payer, and paid for thru general tax revenues.  With the fiasco for Republicans of non-support that has unfolded on the Senate bill, it is time for moderate Republicans to work with Democrats to fix the ACA. 

My suggestions would to expand Medicare/Medicaid for all states, limit insurance companies by law - to free market Premium policies which top-up coverage for cosmetic procedures, private hospital use, etc., where charges might be greater than the negotiated rates covered by the national program.   The new national coverage should apply for all non-cosmetic medical services which are FDA approved.  Single payer of course, and no identifiable premiums, but rather paid for thru increased progressive taxes on incomes, investment returns, and estates ? bringing back the old 75% tax rate for those at the highest income levels.   Once universal health care, national defense, social security, and the national debt have all been fully covered, then the tax rate can be lowered to match expenditures in these and the other important areas such as climate change, clean air and water, etc.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Dallasbeek on July 01, 2017, 08:27:39 pm
On the surface your plan looks pretty good, Kathy, but ...

1. Have you not noticed how some regulatory agencies overseing public utilities seem to be in the pockets of those PUCs?

2.  What happens when an individual has spent their million?  Do we let them die?  I just started on an oral chemotherapy medication that I was told had a monthly co-pay of $2,783.  I said no thank you and the drug company is giving it to me free for now.  In six months, it will be reviewed and we'll see if I stay on it.  But $2,783 a month would eat into that million pretty quickly.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Dallasbeek on July 01, 2017, 08:32:41 pm
I should clarify that I have a type of cancer that's treatable long-term.  I've been living with it for 16 years already.  I wasn't aware this med was chemo until it arrived today.  Very weird stuff.  I guess I might be part of a study or something, but they do have to have informed consent for a study, right?
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: gww on July 01, 2017, 08:45:51 pm
I like single pay and getting rid of health insurers.  Supposedly a four hundred billion savings per year in health care cost. 
dallas
Hope it stays long term illness (meaning I can keep reading your post for a long time) and that you are not put at any risk due to cost.
Good luck
gww
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Acebird on July 01, 2017, 10:44:56 pm
3. Exempt seniors from the plan and allow them to keep Medicare.

If you make exceptions it is not a sound plan.  I am very close to being a senior.

I think your plan is not that bad.

According to Warren Buffet we should have elected one of his sisters and then elected them to office.  It certainly would have raised the IQ in the White House by 100 points.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: beecanbee on July 02, 2017, 03:39:24 am

1. ... If they leave the country, they forfeit the money. 

Several millions of Americans work overseas for years at a time.  Most return, but they do pay US taxes while overseas, even if they don`t ever return.  But return they might if they were insured and faced a life changing disease.

-----

Also - $1m doesn`t cover many diseases, particularly if contracted while young.

On the other hand ? with single payer hospitals shed very significant billing and even treatment burdens, since they don`t need to seek preapprovals, check for insurance status, or manage different billing procedures.  One form fits all.  Plus, the doctors call the shots on treatments and just follow the standard treatment guidelines in most cases, and make informed decisions when necessary to step outside of those.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Acebird on July 02, 2017, 09:28:54 am
I guess I might be part of a study or something, but they do have to have informed consent for a study, right?

Not if the drug / treatment is approved.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Psparr on July 02, 2017, 12:13:42 pm
Single payer would look no different than the post office.  An utter mess and never on budget. Are health insurance companies the best answer? No.
However if you want to see the future of single payer just google Charlie Gard.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: beecanbee on July 02, 2017, 01:58:30 pm
Single payer would look no different than the post office.  An utter mess and never on budget. Are health insurance companies the best answer? No.
However if you want to see the future of single payer just google Charlie Gard.

Single payer would look more closely like SS or even Medicare - once enrolled, the patient loses sight of it since only the hospital blling department has an ongoing relationship with one, and only one, insurance company.  Of course top-up private insurance would complicate the billing for some patients, but then again - not for the patient nor for the doctor, and in any event it would be far simpler and far cheaper than what exists today.  
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: kathyp on July 02, 2017, 02:02:38 pm
Valid points and some that we have been going over on FB.  I want this simple, so let's try to keep it to one page.

Leaving country was directed at those who are legal residents, but perhaps citizens of other countries.  If they choose to leave, they forfeit dollars.  If you choose to be an expat, you should also forfeit in my opinion.  Working in another country is not really leaving. 

Long term expensive treatment would be covered by a simple process of applying for a top-up.  Even if you had to do that for many people, it would still be less expensive than the current or proposed plans.  We have 350ish million people and under 4 million births per year.

Congress would have to address the insurance company bit because it would have to have to be applied nationally.  this part is the part that is the least free market, but as someone pointed out to me elsewhere, if they are not more regulated they will see the money as something they need to get at.  To that end, a PUC type process would probably work, but it would have to be one that is not IN government even if the rules are set by the government.  Maybe something like the FCC, which works pretty well most of the time and if kept balanced keeps ideologues from screwing it up. 

There are a couple of problems that are at the top of my list with single payer.  1 is cost.  The government never controls cost until things are out of hand.  It can't do any program without a monstrous bureaucracy (NHS 5th largest employer in the world for 65 million people) When they do finally figure out that a program is out of hand, they usually just print money to cover it, rather than do something to reduce cost AND the people throw a hissy fit if anyone tries to limit "free" stuff.  True in England and true here.
Another big problem is availability of or limiting of services.

Expanding Medicaid makes it worse.  Already Medicaid users use more services than anyone else and much of that use is abuse.  England has the same problem.  Faster to go the the ER for stuff than wait for an appointment.  Easy to go for every sniffle and cough that wait for something to pass.  The result is that people who need cancer surgery wait weeks.   People who need heart surgery wait months.  Never mind things like joint transplants, etc. that are certainly not emergencies but go to the quality of life.

Quote
I just started on an oral chemotherapy medication that I was told had a monthly co-pay of $2,783.

One of the biggest ways single payer in other countries limits cost is by limiting drugs.  If the drug is not standard of care, then it probably is not available.  There was a drug for MS that became available in the US as soon as it was shown to work.  It was not cheap, but most insurance covered it.  It was not available in the UK on the NHS for many year.  If people wanted it they had to find a private doc and pay all expenses out of pocket. 

No plan is going to be perfect.  The most simple plan that does the most good for the most people, controls cost, and keeps the inept government out of it, is the plan I want.


Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Psparr on July 02, 2017, 02:03:55 pm
You mean like when Obama said maybe you could just take a pill instead of having a hip replacement? That kind of government run health care?
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: beecanbee on July 02, 2017, 02:17:37 pm
... if you want to see the future of single payer just google Charlie Gard. 

I did google and read.  Sad story for sure, but hardly an aspect of single payer or even national healthcare insurance.  Compare to the thousands who die every year in the US for lack of insurance, or worse - for having insurance that simply decides to no longer pay.  That is the system the US has now - with many patients and doctors at wits end.  In the end, they contact their state insurance commissioners or their congressmen in a last ditch effort to remain on treatment.  But for those without insurance - still over 10% now, and for many with very high co-pays, they simply must avoid treatment and thus die many years sooner than the might if they had coverage.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: beecanbee on July 02, 2017, 02:21:00 pm
You mean like when Obama said maybe you could just take a pill instead of having a hip replacement? That kind of government run health care?

Trump - Repeal and replace - I will not touch SS or Medicare.  It will be so much better than the ACH.  Huhhh?  How many millions will lose insurance?  Better for whom?
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Psparr on July 02, 2017, 02:42:50 pm
... if you want to see the future of single payer just google Charlie Gard. 

I did google and read.  Sad story for sure, but hardly an aspect of single payer or even national healthcare insurance.
If there is only the government offering insurance, they can dictate what care you may or may not receive.
Remember the "death panels"?
It was a group set up by the government to look at certain forms of treatment and to decide wether they were worth it or not. Sounds exactly like Charlie Gard.
Many places in the ACA it says "shall be determined by the HHS secretary". Medicare and Medicade are going bankrupt and you want more of it?
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: sawdstmakr on July 02, 2017, 02:43:40 pm
Bruce,
I think you will find many many millions more will be able to afford health care when it is repealed. Very few people, compared to what it was supposed be for ever even got Obamas unaffordable health care. The main reason for it was more control and to bankrupt the US.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: beecanbee on July 02, 2017, 03:00:46 pm
Valid points and some that we have been going over on FB.  I want this simple, so let's try to keep it to one page.

A few quibbles...

Quote
Leaving country was directed at those who are legal residents, but perhaps citizens of other countries.  If they choose to leave, they forfeit dollars.  If you choose to be an expat, you should also forfeit in my opinion.  Working in another country is not really leaving. 

Being an expat - is working overseas.  That is, unless you are military (assigned overseas) or maybe a company employee who is posted overseas for a short term - measured in weeks or months instead of years.  Many people are dual citizens too and move back and forth throughout their lives to follow jobs, education, and care for older family members.

Quote
Long term expensive treatment would be covered by a simple process of applying for a top-up.

That could work well for healthy adults, but not so well for children or for those with genetic or familial histories that might make them top-up ineligible.   

Quote
There are a couple of problems that are at the top of my list with single payer.  1 is cost.  The government never controls cost until things are out of hand. ... Another big problem is availability of or limiting of services.

Single payer reduces cost of the multiple billing departments, the claims adjusters, and by allowing uniform negotiated cost of services and medications.

The UK does limit the pipe-line, and I agree that is a real problem which both doctors and patients face there - but it still does a better job for their society at large than does the US, where would-be patients don`t even present for care, except to the emergency room when it is too late.

Quote
Expanding Medicaid makes it worse.  Already Medicaid users use more services than anyone else and much of that use is abuse.

Many more on Medicare/Medicaid today, and thus insured, under the ACA, so naturally they use more services than in the past.  If there is abuse it needs to be addressed, just as it needs to be addressed when private insurance refuses to pay.

Quote
One of the biggest ways single payer in other countries limits cost is by limiting drugs.  If the drug is not standard of care, then it probably is not available.  There was a drug for MS that became available in the US as soon as it was shown to work.  It was not cheap, but most insurance covered it.  It was not available in the UK on the NHS for many year.  If people wanted it they had to find a private doc and pay all expenses out of pocket. 

That is exactly the same as in the US today with private insurance, with refusals to pay.  Many patients get around this by participating in trials, and by begging for mercy to the drug companies who may be willing to give it away in order to build doctor relationships, but this is not the case for most.


Quote
No plan is going to be perfect.  The most simple plan that does the most good for the most people, controls cost, and keeps the inept government out of it, is the plan I want. 

The most good for the most people is national healthcare for all, and single payer.  The government needs to get involved to solve the distorted system the US has today - for would-be patients, patients, and doctors.


Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: beecanbee on July 02, 2017, 03:11:00 pm
  If there is only the government offering insurance, they can dictate what care you may or may not receive.
Remember the "death panels"?

...  Medicare and Medicade are going bankrupt and you want more of it? 

Insurance companies do that today - even for those with insurance.  But for those without, they do it in a blanket way.  Death Panel - is exactly the right term for the Republican cabal that is pushing repeal. 

Medicare/Medicaid only goes bankrupt if it isn`t funded.  Compare to military defence - is it going bankrupt?
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Jim 134 on July 02, 2017, 05:05:52 pm
          I do realize $1,000,000 seems like a lot of money. Speaking from personal experience. My wife would have ran out of money about 8 to 10 years before she died. And that was four years ago she passed away.


       BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: gww on July 02, 2017, 05:15:22 pm
paspar
Quote
Single payer would look no different than the post office.  An utter mess and never on budget. Are health insurance companies the best answer? No.

The post office was basically privatized in 1970 making them along the lines of the electric companys that are private but with gov oversite.  Before then stamps were $0.03 and were not considered a product.  Now it is a netrual revanue agency that has to pay for its buisness by selling its products.  Sorta like blue cross insurance when it was a non-profit company.  Just saying
gww

Ps beecanbee
I have made many of the same insurance already does this arguments many times in other threads.  I couldn't agree with your position more then I do.  Typing long post is hard work.
Cheers
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: kathyp on July 02, 2017, 05:23:38 pm
Quote
Compare to the thousands who die every year in the US for lack of insurance, or worse - for having insurance that simply decides to no longer pay.

Where are these people.  this would have been the best argument for ACA but there were not bodies, no stories, and the one little kid trotted out because his mother died was representative of a lie.

Quote
The most good for the most people is national healthcare for all, and single payer.  The government needs to get involved to solve the distorted system the US has today - for would-be patients, patients, and doctors.

Because the govenrment runs things so well?  Because the government is efficient?  Because it makes better decision that you do?

Quote
That is exactly the same as in the US today with private insurance, with refusals to pay.  Many patients get around this by participating in trials, and by begging for mercy to the drug companies who may be willing to give it away in order to build doctor relationships, but this is not the case for most.

This is true, but they have those options.  With single payer, you don't.

Quote
Many more on Medicare/Medicaid today, and thus insured, under the ACA, so naturally they use more services than in the past.  If there is abuse it needs to be addressed, just as it needs to be addressed when private insurance refuses to pay.

Everyone seems thrilled to have more people dependant on government.  It's FAIR.  what about the people who had to go on Medicaid because they lost hours, lost their insurance, and were forced into this?  what about the people who are paying more for something with a deductible so high the insurance is worthless to them?  Yeah, you got more people on the government dole, but it came at the expense of many other people.  It came at the expense of everyone paying for any kind of insurance.

Quote
         I do realize $1,000,000 seems like a lot of money. Speaking from personal experience. My wife would have ran out of money about 8 to 10 years before she died. And that was four years ago she passed away.

Because the majority of people use the majority of money as seniors, I left Medicare alone. Rather than put then entire burden on the plan, those payroll taxes would continue and Medicare would go on.  There would have to be a reload provision for people outside Medicare who are ill, etc.   
A Million per person to be used in either cash care of insurance would cover most.  Even if you had to do more, it would be less than the billions we are spending now and they plan to spend. 

I don't think any of us can point to a government run program that is really well run and efficient.  If there is a way to fund care but keep the government from screwing up the system AND save money, this seems like something worth looking at.  And if I'm repeating myself, sorry.  This conversation is happening across multiple sites.   :wink:

Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: kathyp on July 02, 2017, 05:27:37 pm
Quote
The post office was basically privatized in 1970 making them along the lines of the electric companys that are private but with gov oversite.

Right, but the PO got into trouble because of other things like legacy costs and benefits.  We can't evaluate the real cost before because it was subsidized.  just because stamps were 3 cents then and are more now, doesn't mean that privatizing them was the reason.  There were numerous reasons and inefficiency was is one.  I also remember the price of gas in 1970  :grin:  that, and they were the only game in town.  Not like you had a lot of choices to send your mail.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: beecanbee on July 02, 2017, 07:22:41 pm

Where are these people. 

Dead of course.  But before death, they are on the online cancer forms too.  Many stories of struggles with insurance companies can be found there. 

Quote
Because the govenrment runs things so well?  Because the government is efficient?  Because it makes better decision that you do?

Because the current system is so *%$-ed up.  And yes, the government does run things better than insurance companies do.  The decisions to be made are by doctors.  I would rather my doctor makes the decisions on my treatment than an insurance agent over the phone, outsourced to who knows where, and with a bonus based upon denial of care.

Quote
This is true, but they have those options.  With single payer, you don't.

Very few people have the option to participate in a trial, but that doesn`t change under single payer - since trials are funded by the pharm companies.

Quote
   what about the people who had to go on Medicaid because they lost hours, lost their insurance, and were forced into this?  what about the people who are paying more for something with a deductible so high the insurance is worthless to them?  Yeah, you got more people on the government dole, but it came at the expense of many other people.  It came at the expense of everyone paying for any kind of insurance.

People are forced into paying taxes for a military that some don`t support, or paying property tases to support schools long after their own children have grown, or paying gasoline taxes for roads they don`t use.  It is the nature of a national insurance program and participation in society.  And in any event, single payer and national coverage will bring down the costs.

As for paying more for less insurance, while I do not believe this to have been the case, it is the first I have come across it.  Do you have any data/links?  Or can you provide a clear explaination as to the mechanics involved?

Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Acebird on July 02, 2017, 08:31:36 pm
The government never controls cost until things are out of hand.  It can't do any program without a monstrous bureaucracy (NHS 5th largest employer in the world for 65 million people) When they do finally figure out that a program is out of hand, they usually just print money to cover it, rather than do something to reduce cost AND the people throw a hissy fit if anyone tries to limit "free" stuff.  True in England and true here.

You have identified a problem.  I don't think you are alone.  What irritates me is not solving the problem.  The easy solution is to get rid of a workable program instead of getting rid of a problem that everyone is aware of.  To me that lowers our dominance of solving problems.  Rightfully we should waste away to a second rate country.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Acebird on July 02, 2017, 08:36:34 pm
Not like you had a lot of choices to send your mail.
I think it is illegal to send mail by any other means then the USPO.  Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
So where is the privatization?
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Dallasbeek on July 02, 2017, 10:19:45 pm
My recollection is that the USPS fought like crazy to thwart UPS and FedEx.  But the junk mail in your box every day is the bread and butter of the USPS and none of us wants all that stuff that, in my case, goes from the mailbox to recycling. 
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: kathyp on July 03, 2017, 08:54:09 pm
Quote
The decisions to be made are by doctors.  I would rather my doctor makes the decisions on my treatment than an insurance agent over the phone, outsourced to who knows where, and with a bonus based upon denial of care.

All the more reason to leave choices in the hands of consumers. 

Quote
Very few people have the option to participate in a trial, but that doesn`t change under single payer - since trials are funded by the pharm companies.

Trials may or may not change.  companies don't develop drugs that they can't sell for profit.  If the government is controlling which drugs and what cost, choices are reduced.  they are reduced in availability and in development. 

Quote
And in any event, single payer and national coverage will bring down the costs.

You are right that we pay taxes for things we do not like or use.  You are wrong about costs.  No government program ever brings down cost.  we have only 1/2ish of the population paying federal taxes now.  Where do you think the money for this will come from?  CA decided not to do single payer in their state because they couldn't figure out how to tax enough to get the billions their program was estimated to cost.  That's one state.  Spread that over 50 states and 350 million people. 
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: gww on July 03, 2017, 09:10:06 pm
Kathy
Quote
No government program ever brings down cost.  we have only 1/2ish of the population paying federal taxes now.  Where do you think the money for this will come from?  CA decided not to do single payer in their state because they couldn't figure out how to tax enough to get the billions their program was estimated to cost.  That's one state.  Spread that over 50 states and 350 million people. 

As far as health care is concerned, your statement above does not ring true in my mind.  It is not like uninsured people now are getting no treatment.  My view is that the reason an asperin might cost a hundred dollars or if you leave the hospital in a gown and slippers, you find your bill has an extra $50 tacked on.  Currently this and hospital charges are making up the differrence for the treatment that they give to those that can not pay.

Care for those that can not pay is being given in the most expensive way.  There is lots of middle men making it even cost more.  Rather then put the burden on the few that do have insurance and are basicaly footing the whole bill, put it on the tax payers and get as much help from the public that benefit from care and not just make those that have insurance cover it all.  then maby people can see a family doctor rather then a emergency room.  Then maby if I have to leave with a walker or bed pan, the cost for those Items may more reflect what they are worth and my care bill will be reduced.

Having 350 million people won't change but how those get health bennifits could change and be better and cheeper then how it is handled now.
Cheers
gww

Ps  Right now if you have nothing and have a bad run of health, you get some treatment.  However, if you have something and have been helping cover everyone with your insurance and you finaly limmit out or the deductable becomes too much, you are the one that can lose everything cause you have something to lose.  It doesn't matter that up till then you were the one paying for everyones health care.  You worry about giving people something that they didn't work for and I worry about things being so expensive that I can lose everything I own and then I can be made as poor as all those that I took care of all the time before.  Not a very good merit system for me to be in if all my hard work comes to naught.  If that is a fair way for things to be then I should have just not worked ever and let others take care of me.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: beecanbee on July 03, 2017, 09:24:26 pm
The US today has the highest cost of healthcare - per capita, and as a % of GDP.  Just google `healthcare costs by country`.  NHI and single payer will bring it down.  Obscene profit taking is just one very small part of the problem.  Multiple inefficient processes, and not having preventative care for many people is a far greater problem.  (And NO ? it isn`t because of undocumented immigrants.)

If national defense doesn`t bankrupt the country, and the taxes can be found to pay for it, so too can healthcare for all be afforded.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: sawdstmakr on July 03, 2017, 11:24:27 pm
The reason we have the highest health care cost is due to government regulation. Not the lack of it. My son is on opoid patches for the rest of his life. He has to pay a doctor every month just to get the same medicine. There is no reason for him to see a doctor every month except that the government requires it.
Jim
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: beecanbee on July 03, 2017, 11:54:29 pm
And to add? the US ranks last in health outcomes for listed countries?  1st, United Kingdom, 2nd Switzerland, 3rd Sweden, 4th Australia, 5th Germany & Netherlands, 7th New Zealand & Norway (tied), 9th France, 10th Canada, and finally 11th The United States.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2014/06/16/u-s-healthcare-ranked-dead-last-compared-to-10-other-countries/#7cdb5a6e576f

Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: beecanbee on July 04, 2017, 12:00:41 am
The reason we have the highest health care cost is due to government regulation. Not the lack of it. My son is on opoid patches for the rest of his life. He has to pay a doctor every month just to get the same medicine. There is no reason for him to see a doctor every month except that the government requires it.
Jim

While I sympathize, I do not buy that argument.  We have the same here in Japan and I suspect in most countries on the list in my prior post.  In the US it may better be attributed to the insurance companies, rather than to the government.  Here it is an aspect of the Doctors union - equivalent to your AMA.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: gww on July 04, 2017, 12:38:10 am
Quote from beecanbee
Quote
  Here it is an aspect of the Doctors union - equivalent to your AMA.

I suspect this is correct. 
It has gotten so bad here that even the vets are organized well enough to lobby and win that even dogs have to have a perscription to be given heartworm medicine that they need every month for the rest of thier life.  My daughter is an eye doctor and the ama is the administators of all the medical schools and the schools have quotas for how many doctors will be trained.  It is one of the reasons that lots of doctors don't accept new paitients and also if you want to go to new doctor, they will not let you go to a differrent one that might be part of the same office pool.  If you go somewhere else, it could be months before your first appointment.  All the things that people complain about will happen in a government run program IE: waiting list, all ready happen now with out the government running things.

Cheers
gww
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Psparr on July 04, 2017, 01:14:01 am
The only reason an aspirin costs $100 is because Medicare and medicade pay only a pittance of the actual cost. The rest is made up by overcharging insurers.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: herbhome on July 04, 2017, 02:26:46 am
My two cents. :smile:
 How about a National Health Care system that provides services to all Americans. If Americans want 4 star treatment, (meaning private rooms, prime rib, mint on the pillow), and they and their insurers can pay for it, let them. In many neighborhoods in the U.S., private security firms handle the duties of law enforcement, providing the level of service these citizens are willing to pay for.
I'm all for free enterprise, but if I can get good health care at the price of staying in a ward and eating cafeteria crap without a life changing bill later, sign me on!
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: beecanbee on July 04, 2017, 03:51:46 am
My two cents. :smile:
 How about a National Health Care system that provides services to all Americans. If Americans want 4 star treatment, (meaning private rooms, prime rib, mint on the pillow), and they and their insurers can pay for it, let them. In many neighborhoods in the U.S., private security firms handle the duties of law enforcement, providing the level of service these citizens are willing to pay for.
I'm all for free enterprise, but if I can get good health care at the price of staying in a ward and eating cafeteria crap without a life changing bill later, sign me on!

I basically agree with that ? national health care should ensure that good medicine is practiced and anything beyond that is either paid for thru top-up private policies, or is out of pocket.

My national plan pays (approx.) $70/day for a shared room (6 to 8 patients), while I must pay the full $120/day for a private room.  I do not have top-up insurance, but for me it is worth it.  I was in for 22 days in May/early June, and now again for 22 days as of today in mid-June thru today, with a week to go.  I can afford it.

But for the medical services ? scans, blood/urine tests, doctor services, medications, etc., my monthly co-pay is capped at $320/month.  The normal co-pay rate is 30%, but with that cap.  Of course I paid heavily in payroll taxes when I was working (deducted at source), and still pay about $300/year for the insurance (the lowest rate).

I am all over the patient sites in the US and UK, and my care is comparable, and in some aspects better than I would receive at leading hospitals there.  Plus I have zero contact with insurance companies while for those in the US it is a very significant effort to get them to pay, and that also falls onto the doctors to justify, and sometimes fight for it too.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Acebird on July 04, 2017, 08:14:34 am
If the government is controlling which drugs and what cost, choices are reduced.  they are reduced in availability and in development. 
That is like saying soap opera's result in better soaps.  There is no shortage of drugs in Europe and in many cases they develop them first.  You are a little thick on this subject.  Those who do not have the funds IN THIS COUNTRY don't have any choice with what we have now.  The insurance company makes the choice and there by doing affects what drugs get developed.
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And in any event, single payer and national coverage will bring down the costs.
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You are right that we pay taxes for things we do not like or use.  You are wrong about costs.  No government program ever brings down cost.  we have only 1/2ish of the population paying federal taxes now.  Where do you think the money for this will come from?
From some of the other half.  Why is it that only 1/2ish is paying taxes?  If you ad something to a program it will increase costs but you are also taking away a big middle man, the insurance companies.  Which cost more insurance or medical costs?  Insurance because they make a profit and a huge one at that.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: kathyp on July 04, 2017, 08:04:19 pm
Well, you all may be right that we will go to single payer.  Seems most are too lazy or unimaginative to want to do anything else.  In one discussion elsewhere, there was even the suggestion that a benevolent dictatorship was a good thing to consider.

since most of our budget is already going to mandatory spending, the money will no doubt come from the military.  I will watch with interest (and some glee) as the world figures out how to defend itself without our military and still fund all the welfare they pass out to their people.

I envision some Greece like events, or perhaps rapid language changes.  How different is Japanese from Korean anyway?   but hey...choices, right? 

Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Eric Bosworth on July 04, 2017, 09:47:52 pm
Forgive me for not reading this entire thread. But here are my 2 pieces of copper plated zinc. VA = single payer... Not much more to say about single payer. I think the entire problem is the mindset that government has a role to play in health care at all. Government, at least at the federal level has no role at all to play with the possible exception of interstate commerce. Keeping commerce regular between the states is one of the enumerated powers of Congress. So any insurance company should be able to sell insurance to anybody in any state. But no individual should be forced to buy it. I have to buy auto insurance but only because I own a car. If a state wants to force residents to buy insurance fine. People can move to another state. I think we give charity way to little credit. Given the chance, charity could address many of the social welfare programs on which the government hemmorages money. Instead, the government takes money by force for programs that perpetuate poverty. There are some doctors that will treat poor patients out of charity. There are also charitable organizations that will help pay for medical expenses of poor people.

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Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: sawdstmakr on July 04, 2017, 10:58:18 pm
What Eric said x2.
Jim
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: kathyp on July 05, 2017, 12:45:57 am
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There are some doctors that will treat poor patients out of charity. There are also charitable organizations that will help pay for medical expenses of poor people.

There would be more if we did some reasonable tort reform.  Many docs are covered by whatever service or HMO they work for and can't do charity work for fear of the law suites.  It's a huge expense that most people are not aware of, and a huge drain on the potential for services. 
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: beecanbee on July 05, 2017, 05:12:34 am
Well, you all may be right that we will go to single payer.  Seems most are too lazy or unimaginative to want to do anything else.  In one discussion elsewhere, there was even the suggestion that a benevolent dictatorship was a good thing to consider.

since most of our budget is already going to mandatory spending, the money will no doubt come from the military.  I will watch with interest (and some glee) as the world figures out how to defend itself without our military and still fund all the welfare they pass out to their people.

I envision some Greece like events, or perhaps rapid language changes.  How different is Japanese from Korean anyway?   but hey...choices, right?

While I certainly agree that the US provides military security that benefits numerous countries - it does so as part and parcel of providing for its own security ? which would be compromised if other countries did not host US bases and provide support services for US assets far from home.  In addition, those same countries provide for their own defense and in some cases jointly provide for theater defense, which also protects the US from global threats.  So IMO, providing that overseas support is as much in the self-interest of the US, as it is in the interest of the foreign countries who are protected by the US.  Of course were the US to withdraw that protection, those countries would need to increase spending ? just as would the US if those countries withdrew from these alliances.

The is no need to assume that US military spending would need to be cut in order to provide universal health care.  Universal health care being so much cheaper, benefiting so many more, and providing better health outcomes ? it is a no brainer IMO.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: beecanbee on July 05, 2017, 05:18:57 am
Forgive me for not reading this entire thread. But here are my 2 pieces of copper plated zinc. VA = single payer... Not much more to say about single payer. I think the entire problem is the mindset that government has a role to play in health care at all. Government, at least at the federal level has no role at all to play with the possible exception of interstate commerce. Keeping commerce regular between the states is one of the enumerated powers of Congress. So any insurance company should be able to sell insurance to anybody in any state. But no individual should be forced to buy it. I have to buy auto insurance but only because I own a car. If a state wants to force residents to buy insurance fine. People can move to another state. I think we give charity way to little credit. Given the chance, charity could address many of the social welfare programs on which the government hemmorages money. Instead, the government takes money by force for programs that perpetuate poverty. There are some doctors that will treat poor patients out of charity. There are also charitable organizations that will help pay for medical expenses of poor people.

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For sure there are problems with VA care - underfunding by Republicans, being separate from the overall healthcare system, and maybe a few more - but being single payer is not one of them.

Even after a full universal healthcare system is implemented, it is likely that the VA system would persist, given the nature of some of the injuries - but common ailments could be handled by general and other specialist hospitals without any problem.

I don`t see how providing first-world healthcare perpetuates poverty.

Happy 4th!
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Acebird on July 05, 2017, 09:03:29 am
I have to buy auto insurance but only because I own a car.
In NY the car needs insurance only if it is registered.  Anyone can buy the insurance it doesn't have to be the owner.
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There are also charitable organizations that will help pay for medical expenses of poor people.

Yeah, right.  This is the myth that everyone wants to believe when someone else is facing bankruptcy due to medical costs.  Charitable organizations primarily provide some money for research and limousines for the mucky mucks in the organizations.  If you have ever had to deal with financial ruin due to a medical condition give us a list of who or what organization that helped you.  Everyone else just believes in the myth.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: sawdstmakr on July 05, 2017, 09:37:48 am
Brian,
I live out in the country. We routinely have events to pay for medical bills for people who cannot afford their medical bills.
A friends daughter had cancer that the insurance company was delaying approval. If they had not come through, she was going to tell her adult daughter to go into the emergency room screaming of pain and they would have to remove it.
Jim
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: gww on July 05, 2017, 10:08:53 am
jim
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I live out in the country. We routinely have events to pay for medical bills for people who cannot afford their medical bills.
A friends daughter had cancer that the insurance company was delaying approval. If they had not come through, she was going to tell her adult daughter to go into the emergency room screaming of pain and they would have to remove it.

Which shows that the system we have is not so good that it still doesn't need charity.  Good on those that are helping.  To jump to the conclusion that enough more would help if more help was needed is a strech.  The people doing great charitable contrabutions will probly not stop and have the oppertunity to help as things are and deserve credit when they do.  To think it would be easier for people to help each other and more would want to do it if we got rid of medicare and SS and VA just does not make sense. 

I know lots of people that have VA coverage and let me tell you that their treatment is better then some I know that don't have any insurance and barily have food to eat.  One other thing,  The VA did well in some places and on some things and worse in other parts.  Some of those other parts made the news and work started on fixing them.  They didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater and say VA is doing this one thing bad and so lets get rid of all of it.  Instead, they work on the bad things and keep the good.

I remember George Bush seniour's view when he ran for a second term.  Erics comment repeats George's platform perfectly.  I remember the "Kinder and gentler nation" and "The thousand points of light"

It just does not make sence that making things worse will be better. More may step up and help more but the resources they have to use to help will be less because of what they themselve lost.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: kathyp on July 05, 2017, 12:38:54 pm
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If you have ever had to deal with financial ruin due to a medical condition give us a list of who or what organization that helped you.  Everyone else just believes in the myth.

You think this doesn't happen in single payer countries?  I keep going back to England NHS because it is the system I am most familiar with, but Canadians come for the same reasons:  The government only pay for SOME care and it has to be on the list.  If a Canadian or Brit wants what is not on the list, they have to pay out of pocket or in England, have private insurance. That private insurance has to have been purchased before the illness because insurance there does not take pre-existing conditions. 

Example:  Family member has a history of breast cancer on her side.  The treatment her mother got was 1. delayed...months for a biopsy and then months to begin treatment.  This was so appalling to the daughter she has purchased and maintained private insurance all her life so that if she gets the family curse, she does not have to use NHS. 
We used to take care of Canadians all the time when we live up by the border.  They couldn't get things like an MRI when the Canadian doc wanted to rule out a brain tumor, or couldn't get the meds they wanted when what they were taking was not working.  Canada didn't have it available and because they are a true single payer, there was not a private way to get them.  Sometimes the Canadian system paid for the care in the US, like when they were sending their high risk pregnancies to us because they didn't have people or facilities to deal with them, but often not.  The patient had to pay out of pocket. 

Never mind things you might want, and could get here, like joint replacements, etc.  Certainly not emergencies, but go the quality of life. 

I will add a caveat here:  All of these systems seem to work reasonably well in the cities.  If you live in Bristol or London you are close to major medical that has things like cardiac surgery, etc. available....even if you have to wait a stupid amount of time.  If you do not live in those places, you have to travel to them.  England is very small.  Imagine if the only place in your state for care is a major city and you must wait in line with everyone else for that one MRI, those few surgeons, or whatever else you might need other than a band-aid. 
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Eric Bosworth on July 05, 2017, 03:51:17 pm
I still have not read the entire thread but I have read most of what has been said since my last $0.02. That said I have a couple questions for those of you who think government has the answer. How much does it cost? If you go to the doctor how much does it cost? Is there any reason for prices to come down when somebody else is paying? Compare that to something like laser eye surgery. Most medical insurance does not cover elective eye surgery. Remember when it came out and it was a couple grand per eye? now it is a couple hundred. It has been a while since I read Dr. Rand Paul's book and I don't remember for certain but he mentions a surgical technique, I think for cataracts that was developed by somebody in a very poor location. The procedure costs about $20.  Prior to that, many people went blind because they couldn't afford to get their eyes fixed. Government didn't help. It was a concerned doctor that wanted to help people.

It bothers me people are often quick to think that more government and taxes can fix problems, when almost all solutions provided by the government for anything have been failures of epic proportion.

Government is the problem not the solution.

I say this because market forces should have an effect of prices of health care but they don't. Just like market forces should have an effect on college tuition but they don't. The reason college tuition and student debt is so high is because the government is there to help. If the government didn't guarantee loans to anybody wanting to take college classes, colleges would lower tuition or watch enrollments dwindle. With the government's "help" however, anybody can go to college... It is so easy, and colleges and universities are more than willing to help students go in to debt so far they have to look up to see bottom. The same unintended consequences occur when government gets involved in health care.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: kathyp on July 05, 2017, 04:32:59 pm
Thought you guys might want to dig through this.

http://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/alfresco/publication-pdfs/2000785-The-Sanders-Single-Payer-Health-Care-Plan.pdf
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Michael Bush on July 05, 2017, 05:56:12 pm
I think the solution to our litigious society and our skyrocketing health care and insurance costs is simple.  Make insurance illegal.  Illegal to have, illegal to sell.  All kinds of insurance.  No point in suing anyone if there are no deep pockets.  Doctors can go back to thinking it matters what things cost...
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: kathyp on July 05, 2017, 06:02:47 pm
Doctors and patients. 

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Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Eric Bosworth on July 06, 2017, 12:43:19 pm
I think the solution to our litigious society and our skyrocketing health care and insurance costs is simple.  Make insurance illegal.  Illegal to have, illegal to sell.  All kinds of insurance.  No point in suing anyone if there are no deep pockets.  Doctors can go back to thinking it matters what things cost...

That would certainly make costs drop. I am not sure I totally agree with that... I believe people should have the right to buy and sell anything they want provided it doesn't effect anybody other than the purchaser and the seller. I think that rather than having employers provide insurance for employees they should only be allowed to contribute to a fund rather than negotiate group insurance rates and purchase insurance on behalf of the employee. That would get people more involved with purchasing insurance policies to match their personal needs rather than get what ever somebody else negotiates. The idea that men should be forced to buy insurance policies to cover pregnancy and or birth control is a little ridiculous.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: gww on July 06, 2017, 01:19:45 pm
Eric B......
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

I don't know how much we agree on with health care but I just love your Quote that is on all your post.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Acebird on July 06, 2017, 02:24:41 pm
The idea that men should be forced to buy insurance policies to cover pregnancy and or birth control is a little ridiculous.

Not if he doesn't get sterilized.  Actually a man should pay higher premiums because he is a higher risk of impregnating more than one woman at a time and doesn't have to wait 9 months to impregnate again.
Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Eric Bosworth on July 09, 2017, 10:54:43 pm
The idea that men should be forced to buy insurance policies to cover pregnancy and or birth control is a little ridiculous.

Not if he doesn't get sterilized.  Actually a man should pay higher premiums because he is a higher risk of impregnating more than one woman at a time and doesn't have to wait 9 months to impregnate again.
He also has the option of keeping it in his pants. It takes two to tango.


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Title: Re: My solution to funding health care
Post by: Eric Bosworth on July 09, 2017, 10:58:14 pm
Eric B......
Quote
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

I don't know how much we agree on with health care but I just love your Quote that is on all your post.
Cheers
gww
Ben Franklin knew and understood the blessings of liberty... Unfortunately way to many people these days don't... And they vote...

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