Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: My double colony problem/ question  (Read 3067 times)

Offline saltybluegrass

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 445
  • Gender: Male
  • My Bible is living with bee energy one desire
My double colony problem/ question
« on: December 10, 2022, 12:16:12 pm »
https://youtube.com/shorts/XqH4RqPrpjM?feature=share
So I?m only allowed 3 hives where I live because of my yard size.
This box contains two hives separated by an excluder.
What happened was I ended up with 4 hives and needed to do something fast to avoid trouble.
So I stacked these boxes on to each other and then had to move them across the yard.
The box is the one the hurricane blew over. It weighs a lot due to the honey inside. It?s loaded.
My question is since I need to make this a single colony. What would you do? Kill the bottom queen and remove excluder ?
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2022, 01:21:48 pm »
So when you put these two colonies together, you just set one queenright hive overtop of the other with an excluder between them, correct?  I don't have personal experience with double queen colonies, so I could be wrong, but I'm wondering if the bees haven't done the work for you.  The excluder would keep the queens separate, but it wouldn't keep the workers separate.  It's likely they started fighting if the colonies weren't combined gradually, and one of the queens was probably killed.  Have you inspected the hive recently?  Is there brood in only the top or the bottom?  If so, then there is probably only one queen in there already. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12403
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2022, 02:09:46 pm »
Good points Reagan.
Salty in your location with nectar coming in, leaving little or no room for the queen to lay, swarming is inevitable. I would recommend inspecting, looking for the things The15Member mentioned plus queen cells. I would not hesitate to add a honey super.

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline saltybluegrass

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 445
  • Gender: Male
  • My Bible is living with bee energy one desire
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2022, 02:33:09 pm »
I would have expected the colonies to figure it out and make the hive rite.
But if you look in the video you see them using the side of the box as an entrance for the top box and not very many are using the lower entrance which made me believe the bottom colony isn?t doing good but the top is.
I know I need to do an inspection but before you ever open a hive, you need a plan and I?m not sure what to plan for! Lol
Also I am not very energetic and a complete hive inspection takes a while and the temperature is 90 degrees.
So I really need to know just how to go about it.
Thanks for answering !!
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2022, 03:07:21 pm »
I would have expected the colonies to figure it out and make the hive rite.
But if you look in the video you see them using the side of the box as an entrance for the top box and not very many are using the lower entrance which made me believe the bottom colony isn?t doing good but the top is.
I know I need to do an inspection but before you ever open a hive, you need a plan and I?m not sure what to plan for! Lol
Also I am not very energetic and a complete hive inspection takes a while and the temperature is 90 degrees.
So I really need to know just how to go about it.
Thanks for answering !!
My interpretation of the side entrance was simply that the whole two-box colony has decided to use that as the entrance.  If it's too hot to do an inspection, I don't think it's a problem to wait until the weather is a little cooler.  If I were you, whenever it's a good time, I'd just check through the whole colony looking at where brood is.  If there is only brood in either the top or the bottom, and if there are eggs and/or young larvae, then the colony is queenright and combined, and you can rearrange the hive so that the brood is in the bottom and honey in the top, just for your beekeeping convenience.  Do you use queen excluders in your hives normally, Salty?
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline saltybluegrass

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 445
  • Gender: Male
  • My Bible is living with bee energy one desire
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2022, 03:27:02 pm »
I do use excluders wasn?t taught different.
This double has been combined for 2 years now so surely they?ve figured it out by now. But I got a fresh bag of apple chips and tomorrow May be good to open it up.
I?m embarrassed to do a video because the hive cover has a 3 inch space that?s gonna be loaded w honey so that?s an hour to clean up along with the time to do  a hive inspection
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2022, 03:39:12 pm »
I do use excluders wasn?t taught different.
This double has been combined for 2 years now so surely they?ve figured it out by now. But I got a fresh bag of apple chips and tomorrow May be good to open it up.
I?m embarrassed to do a video because the hive cover has a 3 inch space that?s gonna be loaded w honey so that?s an hour to clean up along with the time to do  a hive inspection
:grin: There's nothing to be embarrassed about, it happens to the best of us!  I ask about the excluder because if you have to rearrange things, if the brood is all in the top, you'll want to be sure you move the queen to the bottom, under the excluder.  Obviously if you find her, then you can be sure to put the frame she is on in the bottom.  If you can't find her, just try and move all the brood under the excluder.  She'll likely be with the babies.  If you end up missing her and she remains in the top, it's not a big deal, you can just reverse the boxes if you find brood up there again. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline saltybluegrass

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 445
  • Gender: Male
  • My Bible is living with bee energy one desire
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2022, 03:48:34 pm »
Sounds good
Looks like another video coming! Warts and all!!
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2022, 03:56:25 pm »
Sounds good
Looks like another video coming! Warts and all!!
:cheesy:  I'm looking forward to it!
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline saltybluegrass

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 445
  • Gender: Male
  • My Bible is living with bee energy one desire
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2022, 04:06:22 pm »
But not barefoot!!!
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2022, 04:47:21 pm »
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline kanga

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 134
  • Gender: Male
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2022, 06:45:02 pm »
A few years ago I was asked to help a person who had just inherited a number of hives, the only problem was he knew very little about bees and they had not been worked for some time. On opening one of the hives I found brood in the top box (super) which was over top of an excluder.  My initial thought was the queen had found her way into the top box and that was now the brood box. As they were all going into new equipment I started moving the frames across, found the queen so I knew she was there. I then removed the excluder to inspect the bottom box and there was a lot more brood, and I found another queen. One hive now became two single hives.

We are not sure how long since they had been previously inspected but the two queens were only separated by an excluder and had been that way for some time.
Kevin 



Offline beesnweeds

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 235
  • Gender: Male
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2022, 07:23:33 pm »
No big deal.  Ive had plenty of cross comb mixed up jumbled hives that I had to straighten out.  We all have them sooner or later.  All you need is a sheet of newspaper.   Inspect the top box and if it has eggs set it aside.  Check the bottom box and if you have eggs (I suspect you dont but it's possible), you can kill one of the queens, remove the QE and do a paper combine to be safe.  Chances are if you just removed the QE and walked away, they would hash it on their own without much disruption.
Everyone loves a worker.... until its laying.

Offline TheHoneyPump

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1389
  • Work Hard. Play Harder.
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2022, 04:18:00 pm »
imho. - do nothing for 8 to 10 days from the day the hives were combined.  Why? Because: :

1) it will take that long for the bees to sort themselves out and organize the heart of the nest and the stores, as a single colony. They will move alot of stuff around in there. Takes them a bit over a week to get that done and to be happy with their house.
2) it will take that long for the bees to decide whether THEY want to run with 1 queen or 2 queens, and ultimately which queen they like better.
3) it will take that long for it to be easiest for you to see what the bees have decided to do. 
     a) If they decide to go with 1 queen, it will take that 8 - 10 days for the eggs from the queen they dispatched to develop into larvae. There will be eggs in the box of the queen they kept and there will be no eggs, only larvae, in the box that they offed the queen.
     b) if they decide to continue with 2 queens, there will still be eggs in BOTH boxes 8 - 10 days later.

As for whether you yourself the beekeeper wants to run with 1 queen or 2, it is quite simple. With the excluder the bees are more likely to tolerate 2 queens. Without the excluder, the queens will eventually end up on the same frame and there will be natural selection of 1 of the queens made by the bees. In other words, if you want 2 queens leave the excluder and you might have that outcome for a couple weeks to a month. Ultimately it is a temporary situation. If you want 1 queen, just pull the excluder and let the bees decide which one they want to keep.

All above is information to think over and will require minimal at-the-beehive effort on your part. You really do not need to do much. All you need to do is decide whichever outcome suits you - 1 queen or 2 queens. At the hive, your only actual planned action would be to leave the excluder or to pull the excluder. The rest of an inspection would be just you gathering info to try to figure out what they are doing. What you would actually do with that information, in all practicality - is nothing.

Hope that helps!

When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline saltybluegrass

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 445
  • Gender: Male
  • My Bible is living with bee energy one desire
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2022, 06:19:17 pm »
As I read this I?m compiling notes so I don?t miss anything.
They?ve been combined two years
It has to be settled right?
Also dawns on mr genius here as I watch this activity these weeks of drawing and observing them more these past two months are really flowing and I?m missing tons of production if I want it.
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12403
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2022, 09:14:22 pm »
As I read this I?m compiling notes so I don?t miss anything.
They?ve been combined two years
It has to be settled right?
Also dawns on mr genius here as I watch this activity these weeks of drawing and observing them more these past two months are really flowing and I?m missing tons of production if I want it.

>They?ve been combined two years
It has to be settled right?


Right

>  I?m missing tons of production if I want it.

Yes if you have a good flow going. I would add a empty super as soon as possible, you do not want them to swarm missing some of that production...

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline saltybluegrass

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 445
  • Gender: Male
  • My Bible is living with bee energy one desire
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2022, 10:49:29 pm »
Thanks P!
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2022, 08:01:53 am »
Cut a piece (or two) of 1/8" Luan plywood the size of your boxes.  Now you can run what looks like one hive but is actually two.  Just put a bottom entrance on the bottom hive and a top entrance on the top hive with the plywood in between.  Now you can run six hives and not even a beekeeper will notice...
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline saltybluegrass

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 445
  • Gender: Male
  • My Bible is living with bee energy one desire
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2022, 10:47:29 am »
Hmm that?s interesting
But I have a serious dilemma with her as the boxes weigh well over 100 lbs and need serious work to elevate some space for them right now.
Im thinking rip the band aid off (QE) and let the chips fall where they may as I clean the boxes out
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline saltybluegrass

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 445
  • Gender: Male
  • My Bible is living with bee energy one desire
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2022, 03:32:15 pm »
I did it!!
https://youtu.be/g-rr0My2wbU
Now I?m observing them scattering looking for that bleep eyed side entrance .
Maybe it was a double and I took off QE so we will see!
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2022, 06:12:43 pm »
Cut a piece (or two) of 1/8" Luan plywood the size of your boxes.  Now you can run what looks like one hive but is actually two.  Just put a bottom entrance on the bottom hive and a top entrance on the top hive with the plywood in between.  Now you can run six hives and not even a beekeeper will notice...
I did something similar to that once when I had an equipment shortage.  I called that hive "The Apartment".  :cheesy:  I only ran the hive like that temporarily, until the bottom board I had on order arrived. 

I did it!!
https://youtu.be/g-rr0My2wbU
Now I?m observing them scattering looking for that bleep eyed side entrance .
Maybe it was a double and I took off QE so we will see!
Good job, Salty!  Did you inspect the colony at all today, or did you just removed the excluder and clean things up?  I'm just curious what it looks like in there.     
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline saltybluegrass

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 445
  • Gender: Male
  • My Bible is living with bee energy one desire
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2022, 06:48:04 pm »
I sat on the porch all afternoon watching them gather at the bottom entrance
I did not inspect the bottom
I robbed two frames from the top box so they would have room.
I got 6 quarts of honey today.
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2022, 08:06:54 pm »
I sat on the porch all afternoon watching them gather at the bottom entrance
I did not inspect the bottom
I robbed two frames from the top box so they would have room.
I got 6 quarts of honey today.
Nice!  So there was no brood in the top?  Then they've probably got it all figured out already. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

salvo

  • Guest
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2022, 11:09:41 pm »
Hi Folks,

I'd second Michael Bush's statement, only I'd not use a queen excluder. I'd use a Snelgrove board. Keep the colonies from mixing.

One hive, multiple colonies. Loophole.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344254950_THE_SNELGROVE_BOARD_One_Method_of_Swarm_Control_With_a_Few_Other_Benefits

Sal

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2022, 02:16:56 pm »
Hi Folks,

I'd second Michael Bush's statement, only I'd not use a queen excluder. I'd use a Snelgrove board. Keep the colonies from mixing.

One hive, multiple colonies. Loophole.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344254950_THE_SNELGROVE_BOARD_One_Method_of_Swarm_Control_With_a_Few_Other_Benefits

Sal
Good article, Sal!  I've got a Snelgrove board, so I'll be saving that PDF.  Thanks for posting.
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline paus

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 660
  • Gender: Male
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2022, 11:16:12 pm »
Maybe a different subject buuttt. I have never seen a Snelgrove board, but I assume it is a double screen, with screens about 1/8 inch apart.  My question is, "What would be the results if you used a single screen between two colonies stacked, 1. would there be significant fighting in a hive combine situation. 2. could this be used in stacked nukes.  3. would the queens fight 4. If one colony was queenless in a combine would the queenless colony raise a new queen if the SB was left in.  4. why don't the bees in a two queen hive fight as some workers carry one queen pheromone scent and others carry another scent.  Would the above answers be the same with window screen as with 1/8" hardware screen

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2022, 12:39:47 am »
Maybe a different subject buuttt. I have never seen a Snelgrove board, but I assume it is a double screen, with screens about 1/8 inch apart.  My question is, "What would be the results if you used a single screen between two colonies stacked, 1. would there be significant fighting in a hive combine situation. 2. could this be used in stacked nukes.  3. would the queens fight 4. If one colony was queenless in a combine would the queenless colony raise a new queen if the SB was left in.  4. why don't the bees in a two queen hive fight as some workers carry one queen pheromone scent and others carry another scent.  Would the above answers be the same with window screen as with 1/8" hardware screen
I don't have any experience with double queen colonies, but I've seen bees fight through a single screen.  If I remember correctly, it was a time when I had a colony that was being robbed that had a screened inner cover.  The robbers were attempting to get in there, and there was a pile of dead bees on the screen. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline saltybluegrass

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 445
  • Gender: Male
  • My Bible is living with bee energy one desire
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2022, 06:32:24 am »
This was the first time in 4 years that I actually had a blast going into a hive.
My plan was clear, I kinda knew what I?d find and I plopped a chair right by the hive and went to work.
I pitched some honey comb around the hive and it seemed to keep them busy.
It?s amazing to watch them clean a comb so quickly.
They never attacked me but there was a ton of activity around me in the air.
I accidentally left a hatch cover flipped in allowing them for top access still. Later that night I went out and secured the top. Now everyone is using the bottom entrance.
Looks like a happy hive and more happier keeper!
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2022, 11:34:00 am »
This was the first time in 4 years that I actually had a blast going into a hive.
My plan was clear, I kinda knew what I?d find and I plopped a chair right by the hive and went to work.
I pitched some honey comb around the hive and it seemed to keep them busy.
It?s amazing to watch them clean a comb so quickly.
They never attacked me but there was a ton of activity around me in the air.
I accidentally left a hatch cover flipped in allowing them for top access still. Later that night I went out and secured the top. Now everyone is using the bottom entrance.
Looks like a happy hive and more happier keeper!
That's awesome, Salty!   :happy:

I pitched some honey comb around the hive and it seemed to keep them busy.
It?s amazing to watch them clean a comb so quickly.
They never attacked me but there was a ton of activity around me in the air.
Something like that is fine in a flow, but I'd be very hesitant to do have comb, syrup, or anything attractive to the bees lying around in a dearth, even for a short amount of time.  That's a recipe for drawing in robbers.       
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2022, 11:34:02 am »
The difference between a double screen (snelgrove, demaree etc.) and a single screen is that they can't share QMP by mouth through the double screen and that means they will keep or start a queen.  With a single screen they can share and so the queenless side knows they have a queen are are unlikely to start one/keep one.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: My double colony problem/ question
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2022, 11:44:51 am »
The difference between a double screen (snelgrove, demaree etc.) and a single screen is that they can't share QMP by mouth through the double screen and that means they will keep or start a queen.  With a single screen they can share and so the queenless side knows they have a queen are are unlikely to start one/keep one.
Ah, that makes sense.  Thanks Michael.  :happy:
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

 

anything