Killed 2 Queens & Don't Seem to want to make a new queen

[mgmoore7]

I have a hive that I replaced the queen with an expensive $25 mated queen.  The other 3 I replaced were fine.  I waited to 2 weeks to check and no queen or evidence of one.  I did not see any evidence of a laying worker at this point.  There was still some capped brood. 

I got another queen, but this time did not want to spend the $25 and wait for the shipping.  I spent $15 and got a local queen.  Waited another two weeks, and they did not accept her either.  No brood left, but no evidence of working layers either.  This hive was my biggest and most agressive of my 4 hives and had a great queen but they were terrible to work. 

Ok, now, I am out $40 and still no queen.  I pulled a frame of eggs and brood from another hive and decided to just let them make their own queen from an egg from one of my other new queens.  6 days later (Sat the 28th), they are taking care of the brood but no evidence of making a queen cell.  I went ahead and put another frame of brood with eggs in.

Any ideas of what is going on here?  There is no evidence of a working layer hive, lots of evidence of queenlessness though. 

[Jerrymac]

So I have to wonder if there is a queen in there....  just not laying

[randydrivesabus]

i have a hive that sounds a lot like your hive. at last inspection there was some drone brood and maybe a small amount of worker brood. i saw the queen....the second queen i put in this hive. i've added sealed and open brood at various times to keep the hive going. at this point i am waiting for a new queen that should arrive later this week. i'm going to remove the lazy one thats in there and put her in a nuc and install the new mated queen in a push in cage. if i had but one or two hives i wouldn't have the brood frames to play with. i've heard a lot of stories about others who have done this and the so called lazy queen came to life all of a sudden. go figure. good luck.

[JP]

So I have to wonder if there is a queen in there....  just not laying

Yep, I would go in and search the colony frame by frame for a queen and take her out if you find her and set her up in a small nuc, but introduce a different queen to the parent hive.


...JP

[mgmoore7]

Interesting.  What are the reasons she would not be laying?  Wouldn't the workers kill her if she is not doing well?  We now at 4 weeks and not laying at all.

[Scadsobees]

Here's a possibility...I assume that you didn't see any queen cells, but emergency queen cells often don't look much different from drone cells.

Often they will raise an emergency queen in the process of rejecting the introduced queen, moreso in stronger meaner hives.  That is about 2 weeks to hatch out, 2 more weeks to mate.

If that is the case you should start seeing eggs soon.

[mgmoore7]

Here's a possibility...I assume that you didn't see any queen cells, but emergency queen cells often don't look much different from drone cells.

Often they will raise an emergency queen in the process of rejecting the introduced queen, moreso in stronger meaner hives.  That is about 2 weeks to hatch out, 2 more weeks to mate.

If that is the case you should start seeing eggs soon.

I did not see any cells of any kind that might be a queen.  No drone looking cells or queen cells. 

Lots of pollen and honey though.  They have been filling the brood box with pollen but there is still plenty of room to lay.

[Brian D. Bray]

Interesting.  What are the reasons she would not be laying?  Wouldn't the workers kill her if she is not doing well?  We now at 4 weeks and not laying at all.

Dearth
Drought
Backfilled brood area
Virgin queen
Exhausted queen
No queen

In the 1st 2 situations the workers will often eat the eggs and larvae even if the queen is allowed to continue to lay.
A backfilled brood area means the queen doesn't have space to lay eggs and the hive has or will swarm.
A virgin queen, once mated, should should start to lay within 10 days of hatching unless inclimate weather has prevented her from doing so--this can result in a infertile drone laying queen.
Exhausted queens just seem to run out of egg laying capability and if not noticed by the workers a replacement might not have been produced--this is usually a result of a sudden end rather than over time as with a failing queen which gives the bees time for supercedure.
Laying Workers are the usual outcome of no queen although this occurance can take from 10 days to over 2 months.

You did not mention the type of queen or workers in the hive you're trying to requeen.  Putting NWC or Russian queens into Italian hives can be problematic.  If it is certain that a hive has no queen and won't accept one sometimes the best way is to direct release the queen so she walks directly into the hive through the entrance.

If no queen is present and they failed to make queen cells from a frame of brood, if that doesn't work by the end of the 4th try just combine with another hive.  Things don't always work the 1st or 2nd time which is way the 3rd time is always the charm.

[mgmoore7]

Ok, thanks for the info.  Now to narrow it down.
Dearth - 3 other hives in the same location are laying very well and this would not be considered a dearth time of the year normally.
Drought - We were in a bit of slow rain for a bit but it is been quite a bit for several weeks now.
Backfilled brood area - This may be a possibility.  They have definately filled some of the brood area with pollen and honey but not all of it and I would think there is still enough room to lay.  I could put in a few empty frames to make sure. 
Virgin queen - I know the 2nd queen was laying well in a nuc, the 1st queen should have come from a nuc as well but could be a dud I guess???
Exhausted queen - Both of the queens are young (new).
No queen - I suppose a possibility.

Regarding the type of queen.  The queen that was replaced was a young queen (1 month old) from a swarm cell.  She was laying well.  This hive was very agressive and I was planning to replace the mother that swarmed the same week they swarmed.  The mother and daughter were "wild" mated queen here in FL where africanized drones are a resonable likelyhood.  Following the Florida best management practices, I replaced both the mother (since I caught the swarm) and the daugther.  The daughter hive is the problem hive. 

The 1st queen I tried to replace with was a queen from http://www.geocities.com/fatbeeman/?200524 (Dixie Bee Supply / Fatbeeman) out of Georgia.  He is known to produce gentle queens and I need that considering the location they are in.  Anyway, the queens I got from him were supposed to be Italian.  The 2nd queen I purchased was a Russian. 

So who knows.  I guess I will take another look this weekend and see what I can find.  This is a big hive for me (1 brood & 3 med) and lots and lots of foraging bees since there is not much brood to care for.  Also, since I have not yet had a gentle queen in there, all the bees remaining are from the mother or daughter and they are not any fun to work. 

[Brian D. Bray]

If the hives have AHB DNA then queen replacement is problematic just as with putting a Russian queen into an Italian hive only more so.
Your best solutiion to queen replacement with AHB DNA is replacing brood frames with domestic stock and letting them raise their own. 

Remove the native drones to those hives by removing unhatched drone cells, slicing uncapped drone cells with the hive tool (slice, do not cut through the foundation) or making a drone trap.  A drone trap can be made using an Imirie shim, cones, and a queen excluder.

[Michael Bush]

A virgin queen is my guess.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm#nobroodnoqueen
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm