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Author Topic: Linoleum mat on brood frames  (Read 16837 times)

Offline Alpal

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Linoleum mat on brood frames
« on: September 03, 2014, 08:35:52 am »
Hi - Newbee here with my question that's bugging me for today. I purchased a going hive as well as a new empty hive and both have a piece of linoleum for placement over the brood frames. I'm wondering why? Isn't there a need for the bee space above the frames or is this something particular to Victoria, Australia.

I've yet to join a club so thought I may resolve my curiosity here. Thanks.

Alpal




Offline iddee

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2014, 09:00:14 am »
Sounds like the seller was too cheap to buy an inner lid.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline amun-ra

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2014, 10:04:14 am »
Dont stress its what we do it stops the bees from building comb in the lid i have used them and it works. we do not use inner covers here

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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2014, 12:39:29 pm »
Most of Europe does the same thing. If you do not use it you need a inner cover or, in my case, a screen top board so that you can get your tool under it to pry it open. Commercially here they just use migration tops, a piece of plywood, specially treated, as the lid. There are no sides on it that keep you from being able to get a hive tool under it to open it.
Jim
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Offline iddee

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2014, 01:08:52 pm »
 :oops:   :oops:   :oops:

I guess all beekeeping really is local.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline texanbelchers

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 02:29:21 pm »
"migration tops, a piece of plywood, specially treated"

How is it specially treated?  I haven't seen any mention of it and want to build it as well as possible.  CA-C Pressure Treated?  I wouldn't think that is good around bees.

Offline RayMarler

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2014, 10:27:17 pm »
I build my own migratory type top/bottom boards. The same board works for either position. Works great since I keep hives up on stands, not on the ground. An 3/4" piece of A/C grade plywood, with 3/4 x 3/4 inch pieces glued and screwed on the two long edges and one short edge, and 2 coats of paint both sides. This board can be a bottom board entrance, or a top board entrance, or a top board no entrance. Works great for me. No inner cover, the bees glue it down so no wind blows it off. Slip hive tool under and pry to remove.

As an added bonus, you can stack a hive on top of another with this board very easily, the top board of one hive becomes the bottom board of the hive on top.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2014, 10:48:10 pm »
"migration tops, a piece of plywood, specially treated"

How is it specially treated?  I haven't seen any mention of it and want to build it as well as possible.  CA-C Pressure Treated?  I wouldn't think that is good around bees.
Tex,
I have seen the plywood but I cannot remember the name of it. It does not warp or rot, when left in the sun and rain, for years. I did several searches and I cannot find it. It looks like it is sealed and safe for hives. I thought Dadant sold it but I cannot find it in there catalog. The ones that I saw we 3/4".
Jim
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Offline mdax

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2014, 12:00:27 am »
Isn't it HDO plywood?

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2014, 12:15:14 am »
Mdax,
That looks like the correct description.
"According to APA-The Engineered Wood Association, HDO plywood's capacity to endure severe exposure to the elements and resist heat, abrasion, deterioration and moisture penetration make it suitable for a variety of applications"
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline bunyip

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2014, 06:17:48 am »
Hi Alpal i got the linomat too it's keeps the bee's warmer in winter and stops the condensation tripping on the bees.

Offline Alpal

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2014, 06:33:32 pm »
I build my own migratory type top/bottom boards. The same board works for either position. Works great since I keep hives up on stands, not on the ground. An 3/4" piece of A/C grade plywood, with 3/4 x 3/4 inch pieces glued and screwed on the two long edges and one short edge, and 2 coats of paint both sides. This board can be a bottom board entrance, or a top board entrance, or a top board no entrance. Works great for me. No inner cover, the bees glue it down so no wind blows it off.

Hi Raymarler, presumably this would leave the space at the top of your hive as being 1/4" + 3/4" from the top of the top frame to your lid. This is clearly larger than 'beespace' and I guess would explain the 'bees gluing it down'. If this was reduced to a 'beespace' would this stop this process?

Cheers

Alpal

Offline RayMarler

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2014, 07:53:53 pm »
You get that large beespace if you use the board as a top entrance top board. I've never had a problem with them burcombing it to the topbars of the frames, they seem to enter and go down into the combs. If they were getting packed for space, I assume they would then build burcomb from the upper entrance lid to the topbars of the frames. What I was referring to  by saying they glued them down, is they use propolis to glue down the lid edges to the sides, front, and back of the hive. They do this no matter what position the top board is used it, it is a feature of using migratory boards. A hive tool is used to break the seal to remove the top cover.

With telescoping covers you need to use an inner cover because the telescoping cover does not allow you to put a hive tool at the seam to break the propolis seal. So an inner cover is used, it gets glued down around the edges, and it gets popped loose with the hive tool. The tele cover then does not get glued down to the inner cover as bees don't normally use the space above the inner cover. Telescoping covers have a tendency to get blown off in high winds whereas migratory covers do not.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2014, 09:12:40 pm »
Anything that can be pulled loose from the propolis holding it to the top bars can be used for an inner cover.  Most of the world calls it a "quilt" because it used to be a quilt...
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Offline Anybrew2

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2014, 05:14:39 am »
All good I use piece's of heavy duty plastic that comes in large rolls for concreting and cut it to size cheap and efficient the Bee Keeper Mantra.
You could use a piece of ply like our mates over the pond or be a cheap like me!!

Steve
CheapAussie

Offline Alpal

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2014, 07:52:45 am »
With telescoping covers you need to use an inner cover because the telescoping cover does not allow you to put a hive tool at the seam to break the propolis seal. So an inner cover is used, it gets glued down around the edges, and it gets popped loose with the hive tool. The tele cover then does not get glued down to the inner cover as bees don't normally use the space above the inner cover. Telescoping covers have a tendency to get blown off in high winds whereas migratory covers do not.

So much to learn. I aim to satisfy the KISS principle with my beekeeping. I've got the stupid down pat, just working on the simple. I am almost at the conclusion a mirror lid and bottom board would be simpler than all the other variations.

Accurate bee space also appears to be a thing of the past. The few hives that I have purchased vary considerably in their beespace measurements (ie from frame tops to the next brood box's frame bottoms etc). Sure, I'm a beginner, and i'm used to non industry standards for other items (who remembers Beta vs VHS?) but it's very frustrating when you're trying to learn.

So much for the negative. On the other side, I had a wonderful day at a bee beginners course today. Learnt a lot. (yes, and more questions still ...)

Cheers

Alpal

Offline iddee

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2014, 08:41:45 am »
Alpal, I started keeping bees about 1976. With this thread, I learned a few new things. Don't expect to learn it all in a short period of time. ""It ain't gonna happen""   :-D   :cheer: 
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Jim134

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2014, 08:56:48 am »
All good I use piece's of heavy duty plastic that comes in large rolls for concreting and cut it to size cheap and efficient the Bee Keeper Mantra.
You could use a piece of ply like our mates over the pond or be a cheap like me!!

Steve
CheapAussie

           I do know a lots of commercial beekeepers in the Lake Champaign area of Vermont USA uses grain bags for inner covers.

Michael Palmer of Vermont uses grain bags for inner covers You can see them

at 43:00 to about 45:00

    The first time I saw these being used in Vermont was about 1965 by Charles Mraz Sr. at that time they were burlap.(now they are woven nylon)


http://tinyurl.com/o663ctq
                  


           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)


« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 09:26:32 am by Jim 134 »
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Offline RayMarler

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2014, 10:08:22 am »
Beespace is very important in the hive. It can not be ignored or taken lightly. Different manufacturers of woodenware do the beespace differently, so that mix and matching equipment sometimes causes a lot of burrcomb and beekeeper distress because of it. I myself use 3/4" beespace on the bottom boards just because it's easier to build them that way for me. I don't have too much of  a problem. Sometimes over winter the bees will burrcomb the bottom bars to the bottom board and in the spring I have to cut them loose. I get by with it on the top entrance boards as the bees are not crowded so they go down the combs into the broodnest to drop off the nectar and pollen where it's needed first before moving up for storage cells. I've never kept an open entrance like that above the honey storage level, only on smaller hives and so at the top of the broodnest level, and I've never done the upper entrance board like that over winter. I just don't want you to think that proper beespace is not important, because it is and violating it can cause problems. The proper beespace is 5/16 to 3/8 inch. I think 5/16 is a bit better than 3/8 myself but industry has stuck with 3/8.

Offline Simon

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2014, 01:01:30 am »
I have seen a few different things used to cover the frames under a migratory lid. Lino, hessian (probably off the walls of a very old house) and vinyl floor covering.  The bees will use the space between the lid and the "quilt" to build some burr comb, especially if they need a bit more room and you are slow to give them some.  Go to your local floor covering shop and ask them for their old vinyl floor covering sample books that they about to throw out.  Generally you can get them for free  :yippiechick:  Then you will have a heap of mats/quilts that only need a bit of trimming to size.

Simon

 

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