Under or Over Supering

[BrianP_69]

Hi guys.
Just curious to know which of you guys just add an empty super to an almost full one.
I've under-supered my hive on advice from a fellow beekeeper but am starting to question that decision.
Since adding the new 10 frame super with just foundation, the bees seemed to have basically neglected the almost full super on top & are quite happily working hard on the new super closest to the brood box. I fully understand why they are doing it but it seems after several weeks that they have no intention of finishing the top floor. I am going to extract those frames upstairs that are 80% or more capped & add fresh foundation to the box.

[Acebird]

I wouldn't do that.
First you have to pick what hive manipulation you feel comfortable with.  It helps if you understand what will happen.  The beekeepers who under-supers do it because the bees will take to the new box more readily.  So that is what is happening.  Don't go pulling resources away from them when you have encouraged them to work harder.  Undersupering is more aggressive then top supering where they can go up when they feel like it.

[Kathyp]

Are we talking about adding more space?  In that case, the natural inclination of the bees is to build down and adding space underneath makes sense.
If you are talking about honey supers, the natural inclination of the bees is to store honey on top.

[Live Oak]

When I add a box whether it be a brood box or honey super, the bees must be encouraged to move up into the new box.  I first select at least 3 well populated frames from the full box below the new box I will install and install them in the empty new box.  I checker board the empty frames I remove from the new box into the box below that I just removed the full frames from. Then I install the new box on top of the box I just swapped the frames out of. 

Honey bee's natural inclination is to build up.  They will build down if left no other way but they will not always do this. 

The new box installed in the stack with 3 or more full frames of bees especially nurse bees working brood will naturally attract other bees to move up and begin drawing out comb and stationing resources for those frames of brood or honey frames in a honey super.

As a rule of thumb, over super in the Spring and under super in the Fall in preparation for Winter.

That's how I do it. 

[Kathyp]

Honey bee's natural inclination is to build up.  They will build down if left no other way but they will not always do this. 

Sorry, that is not accurate if you are talking about the brood nest building. they start at the top and build down.  They move down as they store honey over the top.  In our artificial hives we give them room over the top to store honey with honey supers. 

You can expand the brood area either over or under and it will usually work OK because they will use the room if they are expanding, but in the wild they would build down so doing it under is following their natural path.  Moving frames does help if you expand over.

There's not a rule about this.  Do what works for you.  As for your honey supers, they will often not do a complete 10 frame super if they have room.  They will do a central arc over the brood nest.  They tend to fill in better if they are crowded, but then you run the risk of swarming.  how packed are your bees in the brood boxes?

Is that as clear as mud?   

[blackforest beekeeper]

I got shallows for supers.
When the top shallow is filled about 80%, I give another right on top. Earlier if I won?t see them for a week and flow is strong. Foundation only (from the 2nd super on, before some comb is good if excluder is used).
That way, they fill the super underneath to its extremes, which suits me fine in the extraction room.
I also give the honey a chance to be worked on and cared for by the bees! If you super underneath, moisture might become a problem. Also, if you super too much room, esp. in between.
This is of course a matter of climate, too!

On harvesting, I just KNOW that anything beneath the top super is FULL and READY (freshest nectar goes into top box, which is the only one with space). And I take it. Usually I know the end of flow and super in a way so I can harvest all supers and give new one(s). Depends on climate, system and flow, of course.

[BrianP_69]

Thanks all.
Just to clarify, I am using a single 10 frame full depth brood box, then my excluder, then all supers after that.
My first super was pretty much full & being worked so on the advice of a fellow beekeeper, I needed to add a second super fresh with foundation, not drawn & this was placed above the brood box then the almost full super was placed back on top of the empty one. They immediately took to the new space available & went hard drawing comb & filling it up with nectar. This was great except they have basically forgotten about the almost full super upstairs & focused all their attention to the available new space closest to the brood box. Today's inspection revealed my suspicions. The super closest to the brood box has 9 fully drawn frames pretty packed with nectar & they are starting to cap some of it. The 10th frame is also being worked on. The top super has three almost fully capped frames, several half capped & the remainder full of nectar. I have a feeling that the girls are going to cap all the nectar in the bottom super closest to the brood box before finishing off the top super. This brings me back to my question as to who prefers to just add a second super on top of an almost full one. I think I'll be doing it that way from now on.

[max2]

Hi Brian P.
I know that in the USA they keep adding supers on supers.
I have never done this.
If a honey super is nearly full of capped honey I harvest the honey and return the frames for more.
I may take off honey from the same hive up to 10 times in a season. A bit of work.
The plus is that I don't have any stickies  to store. I huge plus in our Subtropical climate - I can tell you.

[BrianP_69]

Hi Brian P.
I know that in the USA they keep adding supers on supers.
I have never done this.
If a honey super is nearly full of capped honey I harvest the honey and return the frames for more.
I may take off honey from the same hive up to 10 times in a season. A bit of work.
The plus is that I don't have any stickies  to store. I huge plus in our Subtropical climate - I can tell you.

The problem I have is their not capping, obviously because it?s not ready to cap & their filling the super underneath the already full but not capped top super. I?m considering taking off the top super & placing it above the brood box hoping that it may encourage them to finish capping it all off before moving to the top super which is almost full of nectar.

[Acebird]

They immediately took to the new space available & went hard drawing comb & filling it up with nectar. This was great except they have basically forgotten about the almost full super upstairs & focused all their attention to the available new space closest to the brood box.

Perfectly normal.

Today's inspection revealed my suspicions. The super closest to the brood box has 9 fully drawn frames pretty packed with nectar & they are starting to cap some of it. The 10th frame is also being worked on.

Lucky you that you have such a strong flow.  They could have pulled the nectar out of the top box and moved it down.  The advantage of undersupering is the building comb fast.  They do this because they want nectar close to the brood nest.  If you weren't in a good flow they would have got it from the top box.

This brings me back to my question as to who prefers to just add a second super on top of an almost full one. I think I'll be doing it that way from now on.

You learn fast... the detriment to undersupering is the work involved.  As more boxes get added to the hive it becomes a PITA to put the supers underneath.
So you started one way and now you want to switch methods.  If your new boxes are foundation then you may have to encourage the bees to move up into the new box.  It won't happen as easily as it does with undersupering.  Once you have drawn frames to work with (next year) this problem goes away.  To answer your question, I top super and always have because it is easier.  My advice is patience.  They will cap the honey when they have time and they don't need the nectar.  Do not put boxes on faster then they fill them.  You will create a tower of honey and the hive will get extremely higher then it needs to.  Good luck.

[eltalia]

BrianP.
If you understand the caste model for Apis you'll know courier bees are going to service the most
efficient path to storage beginning on the warm side, this makes Max's observation and method a
most useful one for the beekeeper. Where time available is limited or slow flows are on then adding
a super is the alternative to managing a single super config.

Cheers.

Bill

[Acebird]

Where time available is limited or slow flows are on then adding
a super is the alternative to managing a single super config.

Cheers.

Bill

Bill, bees are not consistent, weather is not consistent so flows are not consistent.  Harvesting from a single super can be trying because you have a mixture of uncapped honey and nectar mixed in.  The smaller you try to maintain the hive configuration the greater involvement for the beekeeper and the riskier it becomes if there is a lack of involvement even for a short time.  Being as lazy as I am I seek out the easiest ways to keep bees and leave all the fooling around to the experts like yourself.

[eltalia]

@Acebird
"as lazy as Iam"
Yes Ace. And last I heard you had no bees, again.

Bill

[BrianP_69]

ok.
I must admit I don't like the idea of under supering for reasons mentioned above & although it seems pretty common practice here in Oz, I'm not doing it any more. I suited up again today & swapped over the supers giving me the newest nectar on the top & the neglected super closest to the brood. Hopefully this will encourage them to finish capping it all off before venturing to the top super to begin capping that as well. As for harvesting, If I don't harvest a full super, I plan to take what's ready from the bottom super & replace it with honey filled frames from the top super then add new frames to the top super replacing the ones moved downstairs. This way, all new nectar will be going into the top super & if all goes well, they should cap off the lower box before needing to head upstairs. I have 18 frames of drawn comb filled with honey so they are going great & hopefully I"ll get to extract some honey in the next few weeks.

[CoolBees]

Hello BrianP. I'm new to this (4 yrs). 1 thing I've "learned" - having the hive packed with bees helps with forcing them up into a new super, whether under or over. Last yr I under-super'd a Ross Rounds 10 frame. It didn't work. They never touched it. Research (afterwards) told me to wait till they were really packed for space before doing it again. FWIW. Hope that helps.

Wish I could say this was "the final solution" for sure - I'll let you know this fall. :) ... for now it's just "thoughts".

Cheers,
Alan

[blackforest beekeeper]

Hello BrianP. I'm new to this (4 yrs). 1 thing I've "learned" - having the hive packed with bees helps with forcing them up into a new super, whether under or over. Last yr I under-super'd a Ross Rounds 10 frame. It didn't work. They never touched it. Research (afterwards) told me to wait till they were really packed for space before doing it again. FWIW. Hope that helps.

Wish I could say this was "the final solution" for sure - I'll let you know this fall. :) ... for now it's just "thoughts".

Cheers,
Alan

I made the same experience. they were really packed, but didnt touch it. rather went for the box above and packed it to the limit. 3 heaviest supers I ever had and an empty ross rounds box...

[eltalia]

This way, all new nectar will be going into the top super & if all goes well, they should cap off the
lower box before needing to head upstairs. I have 18 frames of drawn comb filled with honey so
 they are going great & hopefully I"ll get to extract some honey in the next few weeks.

You are onto it Brian.
Without adding more than say three put any new undrawn interspaced (checkerboard)
into the lower super rather than upper as the bees doing wax get easier access from the
broodchamber, not forgetting the air there is better suited to clustering.
Of course it is all small bikkies in a fullon flow as any bee that can produce wax joins the
 cluster regardless of where it is happening in the stack.

Tip being, only do your draws in flows, where possible. All other times use drawn only.

Cheers.

Bill

[CoolBees]

This way, all new nectar will be going into the top super & if all goes well, they should cap off the
lower box before needing to head upstairs. I have 18 frames of drawn comb filled with honey so
 they are going great & hopefully I"ll get to extract some honey in the next few weeks.

You are onto it Brian.
Without adding more than say three put any new undrawn interspaced (checkerboard)
into the lower super rather than upper as the bees doing wax get easier access from the
broodchamber, not forgetting the air there is better suited to clustering.
Of course it is all small bikkies in a fullon flow as any bee that can produce wax joins the
 cluster regardless of where it is happening in the stack.

Tip being, only do your draws in flows, where possible. All other times use drawn only.

Cheers.

Bill

Good advice - right there. Fwiw.

[BrianP_69]

You are onto it Brian.
Without adding more than say three put any new undrawn interspaced (checkerboard)
into the lower super rather than upper as the bees doing wax get easier access from the
broodchamber, not forgetting the air there is better suited to clustering.

I might be way off the mark but the problem with that in my head is the similarity to under supering. If I continually pull frames from the lower box & just add new frames, they have no intention of working frames in the upper super that are already filled with nectar & will happily draw out comb & fill the new ones closest to the brood box. Once again I'll have full frames upstairs being ignored because I'm giving them fresh ones downstairs.

[Acebird]

Are you limiting the size of the brood nest with a QE?