Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence  (Read 1304 times)

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« on: September 30, 2022, 07:51:45 am »
"If there is not equality of outcomes among people born to the same parents and raised under the same roof, why should equality of outcomes be expected?or assumed?when conditions are not nearly so comparable?"--Thomas Sowell

One of the mistakes that many new beekeepers and many graduate students doing their research thesis make is expecting similar outcomes from the same treatment or conversely attributing different outcomes to different treatment.

The University Bee Lab at University of Nebraska at Lincoln did the APHIS survey at my apiary, as usual.  Basically I'm treating all my hives the same yet some hives in a sugar roll for Varroa have 0 mites.  Some have 60 mites.  And some are somewhere in between.  Most are fairly low, but some are outrageously high.  This is treating them all the same.  If you treat them differently and try to come to some kind of conclusion based on mite counts or any other measurement, you are most likely to be completely wrong in your conclusions.

New beekeepers are prone to this fallacy.  They often get just two hives, treat one one way and the other some other way and then come to some kind of conclusion based on the disparity of outcomes.  Unless your sample size is pretty large this is most likely going to be misleading.  Yet this kind of "evidence" is often the basis for deeply held beliefs about beekeeping.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8110
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2022, 08:16:19 am »
Pretty much why there are so many theories in beekeeping.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Oldbeavo

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1014
  • Gender: Male
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2022, 06:30:15 pm »
In coming from a Dairy farming background where management decisions are science based, i find beekeeping a mish-mash of theories that are not science based.
I think why we succeed as bee keepers is that bees are so adaptable to our bad management.
Also the industry is so important to the world but governments, especially in Oz only put a pittance of money into any research into the bee industry. So we continue to bounce between unsubstantiated theories.
Eg. wood vs polystyrene hives, should be a science based conclusion to this!

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8110
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2022, 09:47:48 am »
Eg. wood vs polystyrene hives, should be a science based conclusion to this!
The conclusion is anything will work because as you stated bees are so adaptive.  Too many variations by location so results will vary by location and then it could change back at a different time.  You are right though most beekeeping is unsubstantiated conclusions.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2022, 07:03:53 am »
>I think why we succeed as bee keepers is that bees are so adaptable to our bad management.

Agreed.

>So we continue to bounce between unsubstantiated theories. Eg. wood vs polystyrene hives, should be a science based conclusion to this!

Part of the issue is locality.  How well a given type of hive works may be entirely dependent on the climate as are other issues and methods.  https://bushfarms.com/beeslocality.htm  Another issue is the goal or goals of the beekeeper.  Some things are not practical on a large scale but are very effective on a small scale.  Some things are helpful at keeping bees alive, but may not be practical if  you need to make a profit. 
https://bushfarms.com/beesoptions.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beesphilosophy.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#differencesinobservations
https://bushfarms.com/beescontrary.htm
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline gww

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2263
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2022, 12:50:13 pm »
Michael
Quote
Another issue is the goal or goals of the beekeeper.
This is probably the most important point of all.
Cheers
gww

Offline Bill Murray

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2022, 02:00:50 pm »
I second that

Offline Oldbeavo

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1014
  • Gender: Male
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2022, 05:40:03 pm »
The goals of the beekeeper are important. But if it is your business and only source of income, then your decisions have to be efficient, effective and profitable.
As a hobby you can play with theories without financial consequences.
Location and climate produces a lot of variation in management, but in a true scientific study the trail would take place in variable locations.
It is important that scientific information is given serious consideration in decision making.
An example of this is a Canadian study into air flow in hives.
Quick summary: Bees produce air currents that flow horizontally across the brood frames, if we provide any top ventillation and so vertical air flow then we upset the bees natural airflow.
This Autumn we blocked our lid vents with no build up of condensation. We plan to leave them blocked for Summer.
Human logic and bee logic are not in synch.

Offline gww

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2263
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2022, 06:37:23 pm »
oldbeavo
Of course if you lived in a deep snow area where snow stayed on till spring your view may be different as you would be weighing things like suffocation and labor to change back and forth per the seasons and so the scientific evidence weighed against the economic interest may make a solution compromise best even if the bees did better with more keeper labor scientifically.  I guess when it comes to goals, the one doing the work decides where to put value and if he does it well, he will benefit on the things he counts.  I do agree trying to know as much as possible about cause and effect but also as you point out financial benefit  also has to be counted in some way.
Cheers
gww

Ps, I am a bottom entrance and solid bottom guy though I admit to being a poor carpenter and so who knows how many entrances the bees really end up with.

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2022, 06:46:22 am »
Huber's experiments showed that bees can best ventilate with one and only one opening.  Other openings interfere with their methods of ventilation.  Not that they can't adjust but it takes more effort.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8110
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2022, 08:24:27 am »
Huber's experiments showed that bees can best ventilate with one and only one opening.
If the top hole is small the bees can modify it to their liking.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2022, 08:47:29 am »
>If the top hole is small the bees can modify it to their liking.

Exactly.


My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline TheHoneyPump

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1389
  • Work Hard. Play Harder.
Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2022, 12:10:52 pm »
All great stuff .
The conclusion/summary of all scientific articles with respect to bees should always start with:   - It depends -   Or   -  Sometimes -

As for entrances and vents. Well, it depends ;)  I am in Canada.  I am about as far north in Canada as you can go and still have a manageable and profitable operation. I run solid bottom boards, bottom entrances, and sealed covers (Bubble warp sheets under lids) year round.  One of the most advanced HVAC systems on the planet is the beehive. So I do not try to help them. It would be like the novice instructing the master on how to do things. Just decide your setup and leave the rest to them. They will change it as they see fit, guaranteed, by propolizing here and opening there - and even that will change week to week.
Then best ventilation design for boxes always seems to be the most badly implemented. Meaning the worst carpenters have the healthiest bees .. for that gives the bees the most options to open/close vents as they see fit.  This scientific finding means:  crooked and warped boxes are probably the best for the bees. So do not fret over perfectly square, flat, and straight equipment.  That looks nice for the keeper but the bees dont care and perfect is not what they need.  For these reasons it logically follows that impermeable poly hives are a poor choice if the goal is healthy bees.  Yes, I had some poly for a bit and got rid of them.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2022, 12:35:10 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Bill Murray

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2022, 08:02:04 pm »
I transitioned to screened bottoms at some point because I read somewhere it was important in Florida for ventilation and keep the bees cooler. After battling ants for a couple yrs I ran a 30 hive yard with 15 screened and 15 solids. Other than ant issues in the screened, and a little more bearding on the solids it didnt seem to make to much of a difference. So moved back to all solids. Also I run an entrance reducer all year with a 2.5 inch opening . During the flow I run Imirie shims on all production hives every third super. Seems to work, if the bees need a larger entrance they just make it.

Offline Lesgold

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1175
  • Gender: Male
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2022, 08:07:37 pm »
The one thing that most beekeepers have in common is the question WHY? We all live in different parts of the world where climate and localised conditions can vary considerably. What appears to work well in some areas, may not in others. We often ask and question what we and others do in relation to our management strategies and tend to form opinions based on what we see or hear. Have you ever opened a hive to see 30 or 40 beetles scurrying around on top of the frames and then move to the next hive to see none? Why is this the case? Two identical hives in the same location with strong populations of bees are opened. One hive is dripping with condensation and the other is dry. Why? We try really hard to understand and manage our bees to achieve our goals in relation to keeping bees. I agree that bees cope well and adapt to our  management styles but only to a point. The poor methods that I use to manage my hives would result in huge losses for most of you (especially in the cooler climates) but it works out well for me in my situation. Much of what I do goes against common practice and advice but I am still able to end up with happy, healthy bees. And that is a major goal for me.

Offline Bill Murray

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2022, 08:22:04 pm »
Les, Im going to say something really strange. I had a huge condensation issue in one of my yards. I fought and thought for 2 years. couldnt understand why in particular just this yard. I started moving the bees around cause I thought it was an entrance,wind,facing issue. but the ones i moved one way the condensation stopped the others in the other three directions it continued. This was in a field. Moved them all About 30 foot in that same direction condensation issue cured. Go figure. Cause I have no reason why.

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2022, 06:42:30 am »
I think this is likely what Carl Killion calls a lack of "air drainage".  Sometimes you are in a place where the air settles and doesn't "drain" off when the air is heavy.  He lists "good air drainage" as an essential for a bee yard.  I think I've had that issue myself and I moved the yard up on top of the hill nearby the same spot and it seemed to help a lot.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Bill Murray

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Equity/Equality/Scientific evidence
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2022, 10:39:18 am »
Hugh, learn something new every day.
Thanks Michael.

 

anything