Foundationless frames with wires

[Ben Framed]

The15thMember

I think something that's important when extracting with foundationless frames is trying to get the bees to connect the wax to all sides of the frame and all the way to the bottom.

Yes good point Reagan, this has been my experience. In fact this is why I am slowly transcending to plastic. This season I bought the 4 frame extractor recomended to me by 30WFC. On some of the frames that were not attached properly, which were without support (that I shortcuted on past season), as you describe Member, I had to 'take the time', using rubber bands as in a cut out situation, to keep the comb from 'blowing out'. Though this did work in 9 out of ten of this type described comb, it is not fun and time consuming. A great disadvantage in frameless full deeps to be extracted, in my opinion.

Therefore I am with TheHoneyPump on plastic frames and foundation for honey production as intended for extraction..

Phillip

[Oldbeavo]

Sorry for the upside down photo, but the bees will fill all the frame in the super but the comb they form in the super is drone comb.
Haven't tried it in the brood box so i don't know about the bottom edge. it would be interesting to see what would happen if a used frame like the photo was put in the brood box.

[Lesgold]

Oldbeavo,

You guys who earn a living from this game, have to do things quickly and efficiently. Your idea is so simple and it obviously works well. Thank you. I will try that method. On the point about the comb being attached all the way around the frame, I agree. That is one reason why I put wax on the inside edges of each side of the frame rather than just having a starter strip on the top bar. (Which is what I do if I?m making cut comb) Hopefully this will encourage the bees to fill the entire space. If the bees draw wax out nicely in the honey super, (and build straight over the wire) I will then put a similar frame into the brood box and see what happens. Sorry if this is not the most exciting topic but I?m a tinkerer and if I don?t know an answer to a question, I?ll ask for advice and then experiment to see how things work out. I personally need to do stuff like this as I?m a visual learner. I can then make decisions as to whether something is worth pursuing or put onto the scrap heap. Every beekeepers situation is different. What appeals to some may in in fact be inefficient and unproductive for others. The best part about it is that it generates good discussion where hobby beekeepers can learn tricks and build knowledge from the people who have considerably more experience.

[rast]

90+ % of mine are wired foundationless. Normally 2 wires in deep brood and 4 in my 7 5/8 honey supers.

[Lesgold]

Thanks rast. That?s what I wanted to know. Any problems with these frames in the extractor?

[paus]

I use skewers, they are faster than wire for me, I believe the bees like the skewers better on the small number of frames with wire that I have tried since I started using skewers.

[Lesgold]

Hi paus,

Phillip mentioned that you were using skewers. What a great idea. Apart from the obvious strength that it gives to the comb, you don?t need all the other gear like tensioners, wire, eyelets, tacks etc. it?s amazing how much stuff we accumulate in this hobby. Do you run these frames through an extractor? Would love to see a pic. of a frame full of brood or honey.

Cheers

Les

[Lesgold]

Tomorrow will be a week since I placed this frame into a hive. Nectar flow has slowed right down so I?ll  be interested to see what the bees have done. From what you guys have said, I?m guessing that they will draw comb right over the wires (Fingers crossed.) Will be keen to see how they react to the wax on the end and bottom bars. I?m assuming they will treat it in the same manner as the mini frames. If the rain holds off, a couple of photos will follow.

Cheers

Les

[Ben Framed]

Lesgold

From what you guys have said, I?m guessing that they will draw comb right over the wires (Fingers crossed.) Will be keen to see how they react to the wax on the end and bottom bars.

I haven't used wire but I have used skewers and fishing line. If you placed the frame between two fully drawn out frames then yes, they should draw the comb with the wire incorporated. That is how it works most times with fishing line and skewers in my experience.

Phillip

[Lesgold]

Had a look just a short while ago and pulled the frame from the super. The girls have done reasonably well over the past week.



Mostly drone comb (as you would expect from the super) and the bees have ignored the wires completely. As the frame had a starter strip placed around every internal side of the frame, I was interested as to how they would approach the task.





Not only are they making comb from the top, they are also doing a bit of work on the side and bottom bars. This should ensure that the comb will eventually be attached on all sides giving that extra strength and support that was needed. Will post another pic at some stage when the comb is completely drawn.

Cheers

Les

[Oldbeavo]

i found one of our comb honey frames in a brood box. If the comb honey has been kept over winter and candies then we will feed it back to the bees.
this frame must have had the bottom half cut out as the had drawn it out in brood comb but not all the way to the bottom bar.
My thought is that it is too close to the floor of the brood box and there for may be too cool for brood so why bother drawing it out.
Some of our plastic have a small area 1/4" not drawn to the wood, maybe same reason.
Would they draw it different in the top box of a double brood system where the temperature it better?

[Lesgold]

That?s an interesting observation Oldbeavo. It may well be the case. Your solution also sounds logical.

[rast]

Thanks rast. That?s what I wanted to know. Any problems with these frames in the extractor?

A few cracks once in a while, but no total blow outs. I use a tangential extractor and do the first flip early.

[rast]

Very similar to what is experienced with queen laying with a screen bottom board.
 

[Brian MCquilkin]

Tried foundationless frames lots of times and used many different combinations. The results have been mixed.
The benefits I see:
Reduction in the cost of the foundation
Easier to cut out any queen cell without damaging them
Natural bee cell size.
Disadvantages:
Way too much drone combe
It's labor-intensive.
Comb not drawn out properly. holes etc.
Wonki comb uneven comb gives that queen too many places to hide when looking for her.
When putting in starter strips make sure they go all the way out to the edges of the frame, the bees would draw it out better.
I have used wire and fishing lines to string out the frames for support of the comb.
I prefer the fishing line as it is cheap and easy to cut. Use a heave nylon fishing line or the bees will chew through it. If I need to cut out a queen cell to use in another hive the fishing line is easier to cut through than the wire.
This year I will be doing some more foundationless and the starter strips will be a 3/4" strip of plastic foundation top and bottom and fishing line for the support.

[Lesgold]

Thanks guys. That?s the information I wanted to know. I have miles of wire so I will use that up first but would be interested to know how much support fishing line would give wax while it?s in an extractor. I understand that it would be good in a brood box but what about in an extractor? Fishing line stretches and has a lot of ?give? in it. I would have thought that you would end up with too much distortion of cells after being through the extraction process. (Unless you were really careful)

[Oldbeavo]

Hi Guys
How much is plastic foundation in the US? Unless you have a heap of time to kill why bother with the alternative contraptions for getting the bees to draw frames.
We buy plastic for $1.10 per sheet.

[Lesgold]

That?s a good price for plastic foundation. You must be buying in large quantities to get it that cheap.

[Ben Framed]

Hi Guys
How much is plastic foundation in the US? Unless you have a heap of time to kill why bother with the alternative contraptions for getting the bees to draw frames.
We buy plastic for $1.10 per sheet.

Oldbeavo, I tend to agree.

Current price of one company in California for deeps (9-1/8")    ...
Example:
Box of 100 Large White or Black Foundation, with Heavy Wax $125.00.   Adding shipping to my location, total:  $180.00. Making $1.80 each.

2 Boxes of 52= 104 Large White or Black, One Piece Frames and Foundation, with Heavy Wax $197.60...   Shipping to my location total: $307.60 for 104 of these. Making $2.96 each.    Still not bad considering the frames and foundation are one piece.

Phillip

[Brian MCquilkin]

Thanks guys. That?s the information I wanted to know. I have miles of wire so I will use that up first but would be interested to know how much support fishing line would give wax while it?s in an extractor. I understand that it would be good in a brood box but what about in an extractor? Fishing line stretches and has a lot of ?give? in it. I would have thought that you would end up with too much distortion of cells after being through the extraction process. (Unless you were really careful)

I only use foundationless in the brood boxes not in the supers as I got to many blow outs.