Oxalic acid vaporizer

[Bush_84]

This is something I know has been talked about a little on this forum. However I wanted to update a little after using my unit for the first time. This is something I made myself and is comparable to the provap. My vaporizer is working very well.  I?ll avoid going into specifics pertaining to the build and will just leave it with it works just like the provap.  My biggest problem is leaky old hive bodies. I?m to lazy to tape it all up. However when I do treat there is vapor coming out of the top and bottom. So I?m getting great penetration. By fall I will not only make my money back on what I spent to build it but I will start saving above and beyond what I put into it.

I spent a little under $100 for the unit. What I spend on varroa control depends on what I?m using and how many hives I have. Let?s just assume I?m using apivar for spring and fall treatments. This spring I would have spent over $60 to treat what I have right now.  Fall treatment would likely have been well over double and likely closer to triple.

So I?m very happy with this. The only downside is that with brood you have to treat multiple times in order to achieve an effective result. Randy Oliver did some great work pertaining to that. My current plan is to do another treatment when I harvest honey. That way my winter bees can be born in an environment void of significant varroa pressure. I?ll then do a single treatment before I put them away for the winter. Any remaining varroa will be hit as the hive will be broodless. Nowhere to hide for the little buggers!

[Acebird]

No were for the queen to hide either when you are trying to get the little buggers.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Mr. Bush, I am impressed with you talents to build your own equipment.  I?m kinda of electronics illerate so I would rather buy an electronic device than electrocute my bees or worse, like burn up this side of Arkansas.

The use of oxalic acid (OA) to me is a plus, a step forward, compared to a commercial Mitacide as OA is a natural component of honey and many green foods, such as spinach, broccoli etc.  So, good luck with the bees.

Oh, btw, queens have no place to hide from mites either.
Blessings

[Bush_84]

OA has been vaporized for a long time at this point. From what I have read it is very well tolerated by bees. I don?t recall seeing any reports of queen issues with oav.

[little john]

I don?t recall seeing any reports of queen issues with oav.

Unlike MAQS (formic acid).
LJ

[Acebird]

Oh, btw, queens have no place to hide from mites either.
Blessings

The queen is the most groomed bee in the hive. 
I will go with many many years of treating with OA in Europe yet the mite is still a problem.  You would think if it was the silver bullet the mite would no longer be a problem.  Now maybe the problem isn't the chemical.  Maybe the problem is the beekeeper.  Europe has had 20+ years to come up with a treatment protocol.  But then again who would follow it?  Beekeepers do their own thing, make their own devices, buy substitute chemicals, and use their own dosing.  Not unlike farmers in the fields before the days of GMO.  These chemical solutions will not work in the long run.  They never have.

[Acebird]

I don?t recall seeing any reports of queen issues with oav.

What biological change occurred in such a short time that the average queen last 2-3 years when they use to last 5?

[little john]

Oh, btw, queens have no place to hide from mites either.
Blessings

The queen is the most groomed bee in the hive. 
I will go with many many years of treating with OA in Europe yet the mite is still a problem.  You would think if it was the silver bullet the mite would no longer be a problem. Now maybe the problem isn't the chemical.  Maybe the problem is the beekeeper.  Europe has had 20+ years to come up with a treatment protocol.  But then again who would follow it?  Beekeepers do their own thing, make their own devices, buy substitute chemicals, and use their own dosing.  Not unlike farmers in the fields before the days of GMO.  These chemical solutions will not work in the long run.  They never have.

You missed your vocation Brian - should have been a politician ...

Oxalic Acid is a potential silver bullet - but only if everyone uses it.  The problem is that so many beekeepers will persist with this idea of not treating for Varroa - so their hives collapse, are then robbed-out - and the mites spread.  Even back to those hives which had been successfully treated.  And so the cycle keeps repeating itself.

What never ceases to puzzle me is that those beekeepers who persist with the aim of being treatment-free with regard to Varroa - never seem to extend that same philosophy to the problem of SHB.  Why not let the bees' work-out that problem for themselves, too ?
LJ

[little john]

I don?t recall seeing any reports of queen issues with oav.

What biological change occurred in such a short time that the average queen last 2-3 years when they use to last 5?

How about far more prolific colonies than used to exist ?  Which is sod all to do with Oxalic Acid of course, unless a person is flogging some kind of personal agenda.  FWIW - I have some queens entering their fifth year - but then, I'm not a commercial operator with huge colony sizes.
LJ

[Bush_84]

Ya I?m not sure what oxalic acid has to do with queen longevity. It?s more to do with modern beekeeping practices than oxalic acid imo.

[Michael Bush]

>Oxalic Acid is a potential silver bullet - but only if everyone uses it.  The problem is that so many beekeepers will persist with this idea of not treating for Varroa - so their hives collapse, are then robbed-out - and the mites spread.  Even back to those hives which had been successfully treated.  And so the cycle keeps repeating itself.

Ridicules.  Only a treatment that was 100% effective used by everyone in the world on the same day would make any difference.  In my climate all the losses are in the winter.  Those hives are not spreading Varroa.  The Varroa die with the bees.  Those treating keep breeding for super mites and wimpy bees.  THAT is the problem.  If everyone quit treating we would be over this in somewhere between a year and three.  In South Africa it took about three.  Treating just drags out the problem.

[Acebird]

I have never had a colony crash in the flying season either.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

M.Bush{Ridicules.  Only a treatment that was 100% effective used by everyone in the world on the same day would make any difference.  In my climate all the losses are in the winter.  Those hives are not spreading Varroa.  The Varroa die with the bees.  Those treating keep breeding for super mites and wimpy bees.  THAT is the problem.  If everyone quit treating we would be over this in somewhere between a year and three.  In South Africa it took about three.  Treating just drags out the problem.}

Mr. M. Bush:  if you were discussing bacteria and antibiotics I would agree with you, except for the first word RIDICULES.  Lil John gives expert correct advice that should be appreciated.

M. Bush In fact, I believe you are trying to apply the science of bacteria and antibiotics due to the fact you have accurately discrided so well the science, but you appear to apply this science, bacteria to antibiotics to varroa and OA and this in not applicable.

Varroa and a Oxalic acid (OA) are different as OA has many modes of action and compares to no antibiotic as far as the way OA works.  To many details for me to go into to explain on Beemaster.

One last note: M. Bush, I read a text you wrote describing your Biblical knowledge.  I was very impressed, you have studied the Bible very well, you know the Bible so maybe I call you Brother Bush although we may not agree about varroa,  that is a small thing.
Blessings

[Ben Framed]

One last note: M. Bush, I read a text you wrote describing your Biblical knowledge.  I was very impressed, you have studied the Bible very well, you know the Bible so maybe I call you Brother Bush although we may not agree about varroa,  that is a small thing.
Blessings

Well said Mr Van. I'm Glad Mr Bush is a believer also!!

[sc-bee]

One last note: M. Bush, I read a text you wrote describing your Biblical knowledge.  I was very impressed, you have studied the Bible very well, you know the Bible so maybe I call you Brother Bush although we may not agree about varroa,  that is a small thing.
Blessings

Could you PM me the text or link... I would be interested in the read...Thanks

[BeeMaster2]

I once read that in India, when varroa first came there, the beekeepers could not afford any of the treatments. Most of their hives were killed but within 3 years they were back up to full production with no treatment.
I have never seen anyone from India on here but if there is someone, could you please verify this.
Jim

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

I copied the post by M. Bush, er uh Brother Bush located on
DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
BOOK OF GIANTS

Goliath was not during the wanderings.  It was during the reign of King Saul, long after the trip across the desert.  But there are other references to Giants.  The first:
"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."--Genesis 6:4

This is pre-flood and pre-Abraham.

When they were in the wanderings and about to go into Canaan we have this:
"And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight."--Numbers 13:33

There are 9 other references to giants, often talking about whole peoples of giants.    Here's one with measurements:
"For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man."--Deuteronomy 3:11

9 cubits is over 13 feet.  4 cubits is just short of six feet.  Keep in mind this is his bed, not the person...

And of course the classic Goliath with measurements:
"And there went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span."--1 Samuel 17:4

6 cubits is almost 9 feet.  A span is 9" which makes him about 9' 9".  Robert Pershing Wadlow (22 Feb 198-27 Jun 1940) was 8' 11.1"  Less than an inch away from 9 feet.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Jim: India has the species Apis ceranae, which is know for resistance and would explain your text.

[Michael Bush]

In reporting on Apimondia 2013 in the American Bee Journal Volume 153 No. 12, December 2013 on page 129, William Blomstedt quotes Dr. Nicola Bradbear and refers to presentations by Tom Seeley and in the article he says:

"Generally speaking, poorer beekeepers have healthier bees than wealthier beekeepers. This, according to Dr. Nicola Bradbear, president of an Apimondia standing committee, is because the poorer beekeepers do not use chemicals or antibiotics in their hives, and they often allow swarming and drone production.

"Later in the conference, keynote speaker, Dr. Tom Seeley offered some solid research to back up Dr. Bradbear's thoughts."

[GSF]

(lol) I'll let yall sort all this out, until the meanwhile I'll keep vaporizing. OA is also found in wood sorrel and sourwood.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Brother Bush: {Generally speaking, poorer beekeepers have healthier bees than wealthier beekeepers.}

In that case I should have some very extra healthy hardy bees.
Blessings

[moebees]

(lol) I'll let yall sort all this out, until the meanwhile I'll keep vaporizing. OA is also found in wood sorrel and sourwood.

Of course in wood sorrel and sourwood it isn't a vapor that can damage mucous membranes (including the respiratory tract) and eyes.  And although people constantly crow about how it is found in many plants and in honey it nevertheless can precipitate out to form kidney stones and painful joint mice.

[djgriggs]

Can anyone recommend a good vaporizer ???????????? thank you

[GSF]

I think one of the ones I have I got from Mann Lake. Try to be sure you get it from a reputable dealer in case something goes wrong with it.

[little john]

(lol) I'll let yall sort all this out, until the meanwhile I'll keep vaporizing. OA is also found in wood sorrel and sourwood.

Of course in wood sorrel and sourwood it isn't a vapor that can damage mucous membranes (including the respiratory tract) and eyes.  And although people constantly crow about how it is found in many plants and in honey it nevertheless can precipitate out to form kidney stones and painful joint mice.

When OA leaves a vapouriser it isn't as a 'vapour' - it has cooled below it's sublimation temperature and has thus reverted to it's solid state, but now as a fine micro-crystalline dust.

Bees don't have a respiratory tract lined with a mucous membrane, and - unlike ours - the cornea of their eyes is covered in fine hairs.  They don't suffer from kidney stones either, not having any kidneys ...

When people quite correctly state (which you appear to interpret as 'crowing') - that Oxalic Acid is to be found within many foodstuffs - they are referring to bee-related issues, rather than issues of human ill-health.  BTW - any number of acids in excess (uric, phosphoric etc) can cause kidney stones in those who are susceptible.
LJ

[Bush_84]

Can anyone recommend a good vaporizer ???????????? thank you

You can either make one or buy one. There?s a good topic on beesource detailing on how to make one. Otherwise get a provap if you can afford it.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

(lol) I'll let yall sort all this out, until the meanwhile I'll keep vaporizing. OA is also found in wood sorrel and sourwood.

Of course in wood sorrel and sourwood it isn't a vapor that can damage mucous membranes (including the respiratory tract) and eyes.  And although people constantly crow about how it is found in many plants and in honey it nevertheless can precipitate out to form kidney stones and painful joint mice.

You mean Uric acid, not oxalic acid.  For that matter calcium is well known for kidney stones, but try living without calcium.

We don?t crow about oxalic acid, we state facts so folks can make us their own mind.  Moe, Sir, of all people you should appreciate facts about food, especially with your background.
Blessings

[2Sox]

Can anyone recommend a good vaporizer ???????????? thank you

Purchased this on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-Ridge-Bee-Company-Oxalic-Acid-Vaporizer-USA-Made/172331597185?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Haven't tried it out yet but it seems to be comparable to others around, and at a very good price.

[Dabbler]

Can anyone recommend a good vaporizer ???????????? thank you

Purchased this on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-Ridge-Bee-Company-Oxalic-Acid-Vaporizer-USA-Made/172331597185?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Haven't tried it out yet but it seems to be comparable to others around, and at a very good price.

2Sox - Looks very similar to one that I built and have been using for 2+ years. I am sure you will be happy with it.

[GSF]

Van & Little John,

The other cool thing about Oxalic Acid (vaporizing) is that it's most effective when used correctly. Having been on a farm the most of my life one thing I know first hand is just how quick you can loose an animal, a crop, or something else, plus everything has a window. You must operate within that time frame. That's why I read and read about what folks did with their bees to keep them alive. I started on this forum board and read backwards for a year's worth of time. I got to reading how the beeks in Europe have been successfully applying the OAV method for 30 years or so. I didn't see any other choice. At that point chemicals or no chemicals I was planning to keep my bees alive. The only foreign thing I have introduced to my hives has been OAV. Like you said, it crystalizes and the bees clean it up. I went from one, to three, ect and now my problem is trying to get BELOW the number of hives I desire to have. 30+ swarms in a year's time is a norm for me. This year I hived at least 25 swarms, and said goodbye to at least 10 that I couldn't get. I later sold 20 of them as nucs.

OAV - You can't argue with success!

[cao]

OAV - You can't argue with success!

I don't doubt your success with OAV, but I have had similar success without it.  I have now more hives than I really want(need to get off my a$$ and sell some).  I overwintered 29 and have nearly tripled that with splits and a few swarms.  There lies the argument.  One can have success or not, with or without OAV.  I am not at all trying to push the treatment free agenda.  I'm just saying what works for me.  As I see it, it is a choice each beekeeper has to make.   

[2Sox]

OAV - You can't argue with success!

I don't doubt your success with OAV, but I have had similar success without it.  I have now more hives than I really want(need to get off my a$$ and sell some).  I overwintered 29 and have nearly tripled that with splits and a few swarms.  There lies the argument.  One can have success or not, with or without OAV.  I am not at all trying to push the treatment free agenda.  I'm just saying what works for me.  As I see it, it is a choice each beekeeper has to make.

You make a good point.  It's clear that if there was a way of keeping our hives alive without treatments, we'd all do it.  But I, and apparently many others, just cannot accept the loses.  I've used MAQS
and they work very well.  This year I'm going to introduce OAV in a week or two.  Probably do it once or twice more.  On Labor Day I do MAQS and then a month later, again.  (I wrap my hives too.) I had four hives going into the winter, and four hives coming out. 

I just sold my place in upstate the NY State watershed.  I had between 10 and 39 hives. But for the last five years before I sold I had about 8-10 hives. My loses - treatment free - were always 50-90%.  Started MAQS and that went to around 20-25%.  I REALLY did not want to treat, but I couldn't maintain those kinds of losses and continue beekeeping.

[GSF]

Cao, I hear ya, I'd love to not have to do anything with my hives. I OAV starting the last week in August and I do it every week for the next 3 - 4 weeks. That's a lot of time I could be doing something else.

[Michael Bush]

>You mean Uric acid, not oxalic acid.  For that matter calcium is well known for kidney stones, but try living without calcium.

Most kidney stones are calcium oxalate and the oxalate often comes from oxalic acid in food not uric acid. 

[Bush_84]

This conversation has sure made the rounds. If you want to go treatment free go for it. For me I?m going to treat for mites and not much else. This piece of technology will increase the cost effectiveness of varroa treatment tremendously. I?ve already invested the time and money into the build. I?ve practically already saved that money back with spring treatments. I didn?t mean to open a treatment vs treatment free debate. I simply wanted to make sure everybody was aware of this piece of equipment. It?s easy to do with the right skills/tools and exponentially faster than the wand type.

[VermontHoneyBee]

I don't mean to fuel any debates but I don't understand how other areas of the world are able to breed bees that are Varroa proof.  Varroa is not a bacteria but rather a parasite.  While we have deer that survive being covered with ticks, there is no deer I know that will not be affected by the viruses transmitted by the ticks.  My understanding is that it is not really Varroa what kills bees but rather what the mites bring with them.

I have read that Varroa affects bees less in areas such as Indonesia and India as well as South America because those areas are hot and if a hive reaches 104 degrees all the mites die, even the ones in capped cells.

The problem with treating for Varroa is when we don't address the lifecycle of Varroa.  If we did, OA and FA would be very effective.  I could be wrong but what I think we should be doing is perfecting a way to heat up a hive without killing the bees.  Already in Europe there are services available where they come with devices that you can put many frames inside and threat all the frames in less than 20 minutes.  I am a very technical person and I don't understand why we can develop some sort of a heater that can be used effectively.  The Varroa mite, in the thousands of years of existence, has yet to build resistance to 104 degrees.  If there was such a device, I would purchase it quickly.

[Bush_84]

OA is very effective during broodless times. In a location like yours and mine a single fall treatment would be pretty effective.

[Ben Framed]

I didn?t mean to open a treatment vs treatment free debate. I simply wanted to make sure everybody was aware of this piece of equipment.

I am glad to hear the different ideas and the debate seems to be healthy. I appreciate you Bush-84 and the rest of you as well.  Very educational!!

[little john]

>You mean Uric acid, not oxalic acid.  For that matter calcium is well known for kidney stones, but try living without calcium.

Most kidney stones are calcium oxalate and the oxalate often comes from oxalic acid in food not uric acid.

"Diets in Western nations typically contain a large proportion of animal protein. Consumption of animal protein creates an acid load that increases urinary excretion of calcium and uric acid and reduced citrate. Urinary excretion of excess sulfurous amino acids (e.g., cysteine and methionine), uric acid, and other acidic metabolites from animal protein acidifies the urine, which promotes the formation of kidney stones."
LJ

[little john]

My understanding is that it is not really Varroa what kills bees but rather what the mites bring with them.

The problem is both mite and viruses - Varroa live off the adult bee's fat bodies and thus mortally weaken them, AND generate bees with malformed torsos while feeding from their bodies during development within the cell.  In addition there are also the viruses which themselves can cause deformed wings and other conditions which result in non-viable bees.

I have read that Varroa affects bees less in areas such as Indonesia and India as well as South America because those areas are hot and if a hive reaches 104 degrees all the mites die, even the ones in capped cells.

I have no doubt that there is truth to this - unfortunately we don't all experience such temperatures, and so need to work within our own local conditions.

The problem with treating for Varroa is when we don't address the lifecycle of Varroa.  If we did, OA and FA would be very effective.  I could be wrong but what I think we should be doing is perfecting a way to heat up a hive without killing the bees.  Already in Europe there are services available where they come with devices that you can put many frames inside and threat all the frames in less than 20 minutes.

I think you'll find this method takes an hour or more for each hive - which renders the technique a non-starter for all except the back-garden hobbyist.

If there was such a device, I would purchase it quickly.

There are several device already on the market - just 'do a Google' for them.

If this method was both effective, and practicable to use - then many of us would be using it instead of VOA.
LJ

[little john]

In my climate all the losses are in the winter.  Those hives are not spreading Varroa.  The Varroa die with the bees. 

In South Africa it took about three.

The colonies which you refer to may indeed not be spreading Varroa because of your local Winter conditions - and indeed South Africa may have experienced success because of their local conditions - but to be using these examples in order to make a case against treating mites in areas of the world where bees frequently fly (and rob) during the late Autumn (fall) and Winter - when collapsed colonies can indeed provide an ongoing source of this parasite; areas of the world which likewise do not benefit from the climatic conditions of South Africa - is both totally bogus and misleading for those who may looking to you for a supply of reliable information ...
LJ

[VermontHoneyBee]

There are a lot of references in the internet with using heat to treat Varroa in large scales.  Those services are too expensive for the hobbyist because the set up alone is expensive.  What I have seen are devices that hold hundreds of frames at the same time and heats them, for what I thought 20 minutes.  Not sure where the hour comes from.  Also, not sure why we don't do it here but it may relate to the fact that we like simpler methods. 

The heat treatment methods I have seen being sold here don't really provide a good solution because they do not heat the hive correctly.  Some areas get too hot and some not hot enough.  The entire hive needs to reach 104 degrees for just a few minutes in frames with brood.  I am not a scientist but if I remember correctly, 108 and the larvae begins to die.  They are not affected at 104.  I actually looked into bringing in a system (heats frames only) from Germany that will handle 30 frames at a time but the cost was about 1K plus 600 to ship and I could not find many people around here who would be willing to share some of the cost.