Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: van from Arkansas on June 20, 2020, 01:25:05 pm
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Ralph B?chler , a Professor, University at Germany presented a method of Varroa control at the National Honey Show in Europe. I am planning on implementing this strategy, described below.
In simplest of terms: in July this is a method of capped brood removal while leaving one open brood frame per hive as a trap comb for any remaining Varroa. After the trap comb is capped, the frame is frozen or removed killing remaining Varroa. This method has been used for a decade with great success. The goal is to remove Varroa prior to Fall production of winter bees.
All of the capped brood frames are placed in a new hive and treated or the capped brood can be frozen.
What I foresee is a massive hive with many frames of capped brood and I will treat this hive only. I realize I will weaken my hives however during a July dearth but this actually increases honey as there is no brood to feed. I will create some single deep hives from original 2 deep hives. I have my reservations about downsizing. However Dr. Ralph assures one the remaining bees in the hive are long lived as brood rearing is directionally proportional to bee life span.
Any of you folks try this method of capped brood removal during a dearth to control Varroa? I would like to hear your experience.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tuJlgzcQWAg&t=2358s
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Van; I intend to try using this method, but I intend to combine it with an oxalic acid trickle when I first make them brood-less. I plan on doing 4 colonies to see how well it works, I probably will use Hop Guard on my 5 frame nucs.
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I'm also planning on trying this this year and I'm super excited about it. I'm going to try it on half my hives and stagger the dates I do the procedure to see what ends up being the best time for me. How are you guys planning on constructing a trapping frame?
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Good find Mr. Van! I had not heard of this method.
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I have not done it directly, but the OTS queen rearing method does a similar things. I find it does reduce the varroa but the "trapping" doesn't get all the phoretic mites. There is nothing wrong with trying it and in principle it looks promising. My only advise is to monitor drop rates right through the fall and be prepared to treat if you need too. I have had hives that appeared to be little to no varroa all of a sudden have high drops in the fall.
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Is this method related to the Dutch thing? I keep trying to read through them but haven't been able to get all the steps in my head straight.
https://www.apiservices.biz/en/articles/sort-by-popularity/950-varroa-mites-and-how-to-catch-them-1999
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It is a variation of the technique used at Wageningen in the Netherlands, which was a variation of the method used by the Vietnamese.
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I'm going to be setting up this procedure in one of my hives this weekend. I don't have a lot drawn comb laying around, and I'm not keen on just melting all this comb down. Do you think if I freeze the frames and uncap the capped brood, I could give the frames back to the bees to clean up?
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I tried removing the brood and installing a trapping frame today, and it did not go well at all. The trapping frame that my sister and I constructed did not fit right, and shaking/brushing the bees off the brood frames took WAY too long. I'm going to try instead another method that Mr. Bucheler suggested in the video, and use queen excluders to separate a couple of frames on one side of the box, and what I may do is not even remove all the brood then, just leave the setup for 2 brood cycles, and then removed the frames inside the queen excluders at the end of that time. That way I don't destroy all the comb and I don't have to go through the hassle of shaking all the bees off frames.
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I have not done this so my comments may or may not be helpful.
I considered trying this on a few close yard hives as an experiment a couples years back. I abandoned the idea before doing it. Mainly, because of my pragmatic nature.
Brood = Bees. Removing brood means removing a substantial amount of bees and upsetting the hive population and age balance. I spend a lot of time, effort, and resources to grow bees, all of those entirely focused towards balance hive strength, and set population demographics across the apiary. To go pulling brood completely wipes all of that work, progress, and expense right off the table.
Logically, realistically, and being pragmatic; I prefer, I must, implement other well proven and effective methods of mite controls that compliment and provide benefit to my work. Methods that do not undo 6 to 8 weeks of hard done spring work, which is 80% of the entire -beekeeping- effort.
The theory, hypothesis, and intent of pulling brood is sound, based on varroa life cycle. But what about the honey bee colony life cycle? In practical application the method is, imho- sorry for being blunt, is just a really stupid thing to do.
A pragmatic man. A Canadian - so, like, sorry, eh.
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I did attempt this method of varroa control via capped brood removal but this method does not work with my bees. The first hive I approached had 7 frames of capped brood in a 10 frame hive. Easily understood: I can?t remove 70 percent of the frames in a hive.
HP, FYI: 106F heat index today.
Some notes per Dr. Ralph;
1. Only attempt during a dearth and not prior to a flow.
2. The theory is the bees are long lived if they are not feeding larva.
3. Honey yields are increased as there is no larva to feed except for one trap frame.
HP, question? Does your area really experience a dearth? Never been to beautiful Canada, but I imagine rich soil and flowers all season long as the different plant species must be prolific in a short time or fail to survive due to cold. In Montane, the Big Hole Valley, western MT has an average of 37 days a year without frost. Not a typo, 37, thirty seven days a year without frost, the other 328 days frost. The grass is insanely high in protein.
But what grows is eye piping; mountain orchid called a Fairy Slipper.
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But what grows is eye piping; mountain orchid called a Fairy Slipper.
That is utterly gorgeous!
1. Only attempt during a dearth and not prior to a flow.
I'm confused about this. Wouldn't this be a procedure you'd want to do during a flow so that the bees would be drawing comb and bounce back quickly?
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Ms Member IF a person is not interested in honey, then, in that case, brood removal would be ok during a flow. The point being, we need forage bees during a flow, the more bees the more honey.
So brood removal is recommended during a dearth.
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Ms Member IF a person is not interested in honey, then, in that case, brood removal would be ok during a flow. The point being, we need forage bees during a flow, the more bees the more honey.
So brood removal is recommended during a dearth.
But if the oldest bees are foragers, and there aren't many nurse bees needed during the brood break, why does it affect the forager population that much? I would think that the decrease in brood could lead to an increase in foragers, since nurse bees could graduate to forager faster.
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Bees tend to dictate their members according to the most need: if no flowers but lots of brood some foragers revert to nurse bee and visa versa. During a flow beeks desire as many bees as possible. Normally we think of time intervals for the bees: nurse bee for 2-3 weeks then forager for 3-4 weeks, but the bees can alter the time intervals as needed and do not always go by the text book definition of nurse bee for 2-3 weeks.
If the flow last 8 weeks or longer and capped brood is removed week one of the flow, then thousands of would be foragers 2-3 weeks later are not there for the additional 5 weeks of flow.
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Bees tend to dictate their members according to the most need: if no flowers but lots of brood some foragers revert to nurse bee and visa versa. During a flow beeks desire as many bees as possible. Normally we think of time intervals for the bees: nurse bee for 2-3 weeks then forager for 3-4 weeks, but the bees can alter the time intervals as needed and do not always go by the text book definition of nurse bee for 2-3 weeks.
If the flow last 8 weeks or longer and capped brood is removed week one of the flow, then thousands of would be foragers 2-3 weeks later are not there for the additional 5 weeks of flow.
Oh, I think I get it now. There may be a temporary boost in foragers, but as the oldest foragers die off, there are no new bees to replace the nurse bees, so they actually can't become foragers until another brood cycle is complete. Thanks, Van.
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👍
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I have not done it directly, but the OTS queen rearing method does a similar things. I find it does reduce the varroa but the "trapping" doesn't get all the phoretic mites. There is nothing wrong with trying it and in principle it looks promising. My only advise is to monitor drop rates right through the fall and be prepared to treat if you need too. I have had hives that appeared to be little to no varroa all of a sudden have high drops in the fall.
I just did the ots on all my hives and and will do oxalic acid after all the eggs hatch in next week
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Do not overlook the main point. Pause in queen laying (aka brood break) followed by TREATMENT when prior laid brood is emerged, 3 weeks with no laying to get them all. Brood break alone does not reduce mites.
https://youtu.be/GnPBIStvC60
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I plan not to brush off any capped brood frame after caging the queen in a trap comb or restricting her to one or two combs at the side of the hive, an queen excluder used vertically and above.
I will let the bees hatch outside of the trap and take the mites to the queen comb. The mites desperately want to go into new cells with larvae and the bees with phoretic mites on them will sooner or later visit the queens frame because they are nurse bees, drawn by pheromones of the open brood there.
I will freeze the one or two trap frames after they are capped. Before I do that I search for the queen and put her on the empty combs and I will brush off the comb.
15 member, do you recall me speaking about the right time for that procedure? It must be one cycle before the winter bees are bred. The many foragers this managements will produce go back to caring for the new brood the moment the queen lays on the empty comb again and this generation hatching will care for the winter bees. So, under my conditions in Sweden, this must be done end of June start of july, winter bee breeding starting in august.
And it fits, because then flow lessens ( in my area) and starts again in august with heather. It fits too because peak of mite numbers is in June.
August is too late for this management. A trap comb is supposed to be used before the normal treating season with chemicals starts in commercial beekeeping.
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I have made a test once, 2 years ago, when I observed two 2 frame colonies without queens on how long the foragers live. They live as long as winter bees if they are not caring for brood. Their only activity was bringing honey and storing it. This seemed not to make them getting old fast. Perhaps it's the producing of fluids which tires them out more.
After 4 months I hanged a frame with eggs and they had no problem to raise new bees.
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Yes, precise words that Ralph state?s in first video: When bees are not caring for brood, the bees are long lived.
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I plan not to brush off any capped brood frame after caging the queen in a trap comb or restricting her to one or two combs at the side of the hive, an queen excluder used vertically and above.
I will let the bees hatch outside of the trap and take the mites to the queen comb. The mites desperately want to go into new cells with larvae and the bees with phoretic mites on them will sooner or later visit the queens frame because they are nurse bees, drawn by pheromones of the open brood there.
I will freeze the one or two trap frames after they are capped. Before I do that I search for the queen and put her on the empty combs and I will brush off the comb.
15 member, do you recall me speaking about the right time for that procedure? It must be one cycle before the winter bees are bred. The many foragers this managements will produce go back to caring for the new brood the moment the queen lays on the empty comb again and this generation hatching will care for the winter bees. So, under my conditions in Sweden, this must be done end of June start of july, winter bee breeding starting in august.
And it fits, because then flow lessens ( in my area) and starts again in august with heather. It fits too because peak of mite numbers is in June.
August is too late for this management. A trap comb is supposed to be used before the normal treating season with chemicals starts in commercial beekeeping.
I'm not exactly sure about my local timing (just don't have enough experience yet), but my big summer flow is still going on in July, so I don't think that would be the right timing for me. I know am a little bit late, I would have rather had them in last week or maybe the week before, but my pre-fall dearth doesn't start until August. I haven't previously been on a treating schedule, but I've had hives crash or almost crash, and that's been more like late September/early October for me.
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Removing all capped brood in my hives during July (in my area) would be tough on honey production. It would be impossible to remove all capped brood. At that time queens are laying inside to outside of the frames. A lot a frames aren't just capped or just open brood. Removing 6 to 8 frames without replacing them with drawn comb would cripple a productive hive, not to mention it could trigger supersedure cells setting a hive back even more. Usually my mite numbers are low in July anyway from winter and spring OA treatments. I didn't watch the whole video so maybe there is more to it, but honestly it looks like more of a way of just keeping bees than keeping bees for production, expansion or queen rearing. More like feel good beekeeping.
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Removing all capped brood in my hives during July (in my area) would be tough on honey production. It would be impossible to remove all capped brood. At that time queens are laying inside to outside of the frames. A lot a frames aren't just capped or just open brood. Removing 6 to 8 frames without replacing them with drawn comb would cripple a productive hive, not to mention it could trigger supersedure cells setting a hive back even more. Usually my mite numbers are low in July anyway from winter and spring OA treatments. I didn't watch the whole video so maybe there is more to it, but honestly it looks like more of a way of just keeping bees than keeping bees for production, expansion or queen rearing. More like feel good beekeeping.
I wonder what it is that Cao is doing? Cao, if you read this, what are you doing being treatment free and yet prospering with steady increases in you colonies? At this time I can not see myself going treatment free in battling these little varmints. lol. 😬
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The results on honey producing are not considered much with this managements.
When I split my colonies though, those with brood brake bring the most honey.
But there are many factors to be considered.
It would be great more people try managements like that on one or two hives out of all, to compare.
In most enterprises of tf commercial beekeepers I know of there are two strategies: having production hives which are treated and having tf queen breeding enterprises besides, not treated.
The queens are bred by selection on tf, resistance to mites, grooming, VSH, honey production and gentleness. Production hives are expanded to max space and brood to have profit and therefore are much more vulnerable to virus, so have to be treated more often. The queens are tested in some production hives or splits.
I think this is not bad. It develops more resistant stock and permits to have fewer treatments or hopefully, some day no treatments.
My bees come from such a strategy which is performed for many years and led to let's say one third to half the production hives treated by introducing the more and more resistant queens to production colonies.
Treatments went down to one or two thymol treatments and no winter treatment.
The management I and others will do is more for hobbyists, who are not dependent on an income.
IME a commercial does not have the time to do the monitoring to decide about which hive shall be treated( by whatever methods) or not. My mentor does the monitoring with over 200 hives by the alcohol test but for him, capped brood removal or such managements would be impossible to manage.
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I wonder what it is that Cao is doing? Cao, if you read this, what are you doing being treatment free and yet prospering with steady increases in you colonies? At this time I can not see myself going treatment free in battling these little varmints. lol. 😬
If you are asking about mites, I'm doing nothing special. This year I'm dealing with SHBs. I used to think that a strong hive could handle the beetles, but this year I have seen strong hives dwindle under the pressure of the beetles. 500-1000 beetles in a hive can cause havoc to a hive.
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I wonder what it is that Cao is doing? Cao, if you read this, what are you doing being treatment free and yet prospering with steady increases in you colonies? At this time I can not see myself going treatment free in battling these little varmints. lol. 😬
If you are asking about mites, I'm doing nothing special. This year I'm dealing with SHBs. I used to think that a strong hive could handle the beetles, but this year I have seen strong hives dwindle under the pressure of the beetles. 500-1000 beetles in a hive can cause havoc to a hive.
I wish they (SHB) had never set foot or wing on this Continent. Oh well, we are stuck with them now. What a mess! I would like to ask you what you are doing in your battle with these awful Pest. Maybe you can fill me in in. I will start another topic.
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I checked on 2 of my hives that I'm trying out this treatment on, and it didn't work. Something about my QX setup must have not been tight, because on the hives I checked, both the queens were loose. :sad: It's too late to try again, so I'll have to treat with FormicPro or something and give it another go next year. I'll check the other 2 hives this week and see if maybe one of them worked, but I'm not optimistic.
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The very best way to have no varroa is to not have bees. Brood is bees on order. Removing brood is cancelling the bee order. Keep doing that and shall be definitely on track to being varroa free.
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>Brood is bees on order.
I hope to be successful in beekeeping, when I say successful I mean in every way, hive strength, hive health, honey production, etc. We know varroa destructor effects all of these. The virus and diseases associated with and carried by Varroa Destructor are several. Each beekeeper must or should weigh the odds when making these decisions.
Food for thought, in a simile consider the attaching tick to humans. They are known to carry Rocky Mountain Spotted
Fever, Lymes, 364D rickettsiosis, Tularemia, Tickborne relapsing fever (TBRF), STARI (Southern tick-associated rash illness), and many other ailments.
I would not want ticks left untreated in my home if somehow they got in, just as I would not want varroa destructor left to free roam inside my bees home, with at least attempting kill them.
I am not attempting to dissuade anyone from brood break. I am for you whatever you decide. I am just trying to help by putting in my two cents worth, (Opps, :oops:, that may not be wanted), by suggesting doing this with both eyes open.
Blessings Friends
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Update: Today I found that in one of my hives the queen is still successfully trapped! :grin: I'll be checking on the progress of the frames that are trapped in with her on Sat., so we'll see how things go from here. I'm so happy that the experiment didn't fail completely (yet). :happy:
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So here are my results of testing this out so far. I attempted the treatment on 4 hives. In two hives the queens got out of the excluders. In one the queen was successfully trapped, but I made a mistake in the timing and pulled the trapping combs after only 1 brood cycle instead of 2 (since I'm not doing a brood removal). I also unfortunately didn't have a reliable pre-treatment mite number from this hive, since I was only able to do a sugar roll with super bees (this hive is kind of nasty, and I was unable to find the queen). The pre- and post-treatment numbers were about the same, around 1.5%, so that remains inconclusive. In the final hive, I assumed the queen was successfully trapped, since about a week and a half after I set up the treatment, I found no young brood elsewhere in the hive. When I went to check on the course of the treatment last week, there was no young brood inside the excluders either and there was a capped queen cell, but there WAS some young brood on the frame just outside the excluder, which I hadn't checked previously. So not sure what went on there. It's possible that I can still remove the capped brood in that frame as a treatment, which in conjunction with the brood break, may work well enough. So in conclusion, the evidence is inconclusive as of yet. I'll give it another try next year with the aim of working out the kinks, and hopefully then I'll be able to see if the treatment really works for me to reduce mites or not.
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Why not just remove the queen (or cage her) and in three weeks they will be broodless and you can treat with oxalic or something similar? It's such a waste of resources. It takes the bees a frame of honey, a frame of pollen, a frame worth of water, and a frame of bees to nurse the brood.
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Why not just remove the queen (or cage her) and in three weeks they will be broodless and you can treat with oxalic or something similar? It's such a waste of resources. It takes the bees a frame of honey, a frame of pollen, a frame worth of water, and a frame of bees to nurse the brood.
The reason I'm doing it (or attempting to do it) is that I'd like to be completely chemical free.
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I am adding my opinion. I fully respect and sympathize with the idea of chemical free. There we are in total agreement! When discussing brood break, there are things that I recognize which must or should, be considered. I will express some of these considerations, concerns, and thoughts here, now. Hopefully you can quench these concerns. As I said, I would love to be chemical free also, even though the chemicals that I use are organic.
Wikipedia
>Consequently, female mites living when brood is present in the colony have an average life expectancy of 27 days, yet in the absence of brood, they may live for many months. <
If that is true, will the mites not return straight bank to the business of breeding and reproducing just as soon as the queen is reintroduced and larva is once again present?
How are these mites able to live many months without brood to feed on and as a tool to multiply? I will tell you. By attaching to adult bees, kind of like ticks do to humans. Varroa mites attach On the underside of their host, our bees abdomen If you will. Feeding on fat bodies causing irreversible damage. Mr Van explained a while back that these fat bodies were similar to the functions of a liver in some creatures. This material that they feed on is discarded as white specs. An obvious indication of the mites feeding on organ material.
Varroa cause many problems in bees. Lessens their immune system, making them more susceptible to the effects of pesticides, virus, and bacteria. So even if brood is taken away from bees, damage is still being done to existing adult bees by varroa as the adult bees are host to adult varroa, Varroa Destructor.
i.e. (Adult bees which are not being replaced because brood has been taken away.) Considering this and added up, will this mean a weaker hive, less honey and more danger for the hive?
It not only means there are no new bees coming in, (brood has been taken away), but existing, infected, already short lived bees are having their very short life, shortened even faster, (sucked away) literally. As Dr Ramsey has stated, adult varroa destructor move from host to host, meaning bee to bee as one bee after another is damaged and depleted.
Even if bees did not have to contend with the many side effects of varroa, Viruses, bacteria, and a weakened immune system. Just the damage done by Varroa alone to the bees fat body membranes would still be too much to put up with in my opinion.
Added to this already mentioned, let's not forget mites can live months, bees do not, (Unless during winter). So how can mites live for months if the hive is weakened, even to the point of being wiped out? By hitching a free ride by robber bees to new homes (plural), homes loaded with fresh brood and the vicious cycle cranks up full steam again at brand new mite (hotels). Plural
I do not see how the theory of brood break Treatment holds water, (Not much of a benefit), Especially after hearing the detailed video of Dr Samuel Ramsey, the scientist that discovered varroa live on bee fat body membrane, not bee blood.
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I am adding my opinion. I fully respect and sympathize with the idea of chemical free. There we are in total agreement! When discussing brood break, there are things that I recognize which must or should, be considered. I will express some of these considerations, concerns, and thoughts here, now. Hopefully you can quench these concerns. As I said, I would love to be chemical free also, even though the chemicals that I use are organic.
Wikipedia
>Consequently, female mites living when brood is present in the colony have an average life expectancy of 27 days, yet in the absence of brood, they may live for many months. <
If that is true, will the mites not return straight bank to the business of breeding and reproducing just as soon as the queen is reintroduced and larva is once again present?
How are these mites able to live many months without brood to feed on and as a tool to multiply? I will tell you. By attaching to adult bees, kind of like ticks do to humans. Varroa mites attach On the underside of their host, our bees abdomen If you will. Feeding on fat bodies causing irreversible damage. Mr Van explained a while back that these fat bodies were similar to the functions of a liver in some creatures. This material that they feed on is discarded as white specs. An obvious indication of the mites feeding on organ material.
Varroa cause many problems in bees. Lessens their immune system, making them more susceptible to the effects of pesticides, virus, and bacteria. So even if brood is taken away from bees, damage is still being done to existing adult bees by varroa as the adult bees are host to adult varroa, Varroa Destructor.
i.e. (Adult bees which are not being replaced because brood has been taken away.) Considering this and added up, will this mean a weaker hive, less honey and more danger for the hive?
It not only means there are no new bees coming in, (brood has been taken away), but existing, infected, already short lived bees are having their very short life, shortened even faster, (sucked away) literally. As Dr Ramsey has stated, adult varroa destructor move from host to host, meaning bee to bee as one bee after another is damaged and depleted.
Even if bees did not have to contend with the many side effects of varroa, Viruses, bacteria, and a weakened immune system. Just the damage done by Varroa alone to the bees fat body membranes would still be too much to put up with in my opinion.
Added to this already mentioned, let's not forget mites can live months, bees do not, (Unless during winter). So how can mites live for months if the hive is weakened, even to the point of being wiped out? By hitching a free ride by robber bees to new homes (plural), homes loaded with fresh brood and the vicious cycle cranks up full steam again at brand new mite (hotels). Plural
I do not see how the theory of brood break Treatment holds water, (Not much of a benefit), Especially after hearing the detailed video of Dr Samuel Ramsey, the scientist that discovered varroa live on bee fat body membrane, not bee blood.
All your facts are correct the way I understand them, Phillip, but I think you are missing something of the point. The idea behind this treatment is the same as a chemical treatment: by removing a large portion of the mites, the future bees will be able to develop properly and be healthy and long lived. And at any given time, there are a large portion of mites reproducing in the capped brood. It's true that this treatment does nothing to deal with the mites on the bees (which is why some do this in conjunction with OAV or a sugar dust), but what this treatment does do is enable you to remove a large portion of the mite population that is under the capped brood. It's sort of the opposite of a chemical treatment like OAV which doesn't get to the mites in the capped brood. The brood break itself doesn't help much, but by limiting the queen's laying area so you can remove all the capped brood easily (and all the mites trapped in it), you are able to lower the mite/bee ratio and as a result the hive will be healthier. It's just a mechanical way of removing the mites as opposed to a chemical way. I understand that there is a cost to the hive, but from my personal perspective at least, the cost is worth it.
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According to Ralph Blucher, their studies in Germany show that the varroa on adult bees are lost at a rate of 1 to 2% per day. With a brood break of 25 days they figure that 40% of the varroa that are on adult bees during a brood break are lost. This is about equal the kill that you actually get with a HopGuard treatment.
If your location is such that the nectar flows allow a long break after the main flow, I can see no reason not to try queen caging to cause a break. Using a trapping comb, or an oxalic acid treatment, would make the break even more effective.
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Thanks Member and AR.
> All your facts are correct the way I understand them, Phillip, but I think you are missing something of the point. The idea behind this treatment is the same as a chemical treatment: by removing a large portion of the mites, the future bees will be able to develop properly and be healthy and long lived. And at any given time, there are a large portion of mites reproducing in the capped brood. It's true that this treatment does nothing to deal with the mites on the bees (which is why some do this in conjunction with OAV or a sugar dust), but what this treatment does do is enable you to remove a large portion of the mite population that is under the capped brood. It's sort of the opposite of a chemical treatment like OAV which doesn't get to the mites in the capped brood. The brood break itself doesn't help much, but by limiting the queen's laying area so you can remove all the capped brood easily (and all the mites trapped in it), you are able to lower the mite/bee ratio and as a result the hive will be healthier. It's just a mechanical way of removing the mites as opposed to a chemical way. I understand that there is a cost to the hive, but from my personal perspective at least, the cost is worth it.
Actually I had those points, which are highlighted in green, in mind when I posted my above reply. While it is true that we will reduce a large portion of mites which may be beneath capped brood, we do not reduce the number of mites which may be on the outside of capped brood via brood break. Mites left in the hive feeding on workers, after removing brood. If the German Scientist is correct as reported by AR, "1 to 2% per day. With a brood break of 25 days they figure that 40% of the varroa that are on adult bees during a brood break are lost", that means we still have 60% mites ready and available to go back to the business of reproducing when the 25 day time period is up, according to this German Scientist, Ralph Blucher, using his numbers.
Now how long do worker bees live as opposed to the 25 day withholding of brood from this hive? What percent of workers will also be lost each day compared to the percentage loss of mites each day? I suggest if what I have been taught, the number of viable worker bees will be reduced at a much higher percentage rate than that of the of varroa mites lost in this same time frame? Not to mention the Oh So critical
number (of the right age nurse bees) that will mature to the level of worker bee status during this time.
According to Jack Skinner UT. "workers live 5-6 weeks". Since all bees are not the same age then boom. Doesn't look very promising to me. With all these worker bees lost and even more importantly, the now depleted remaining force of nurse bees dwindled, (because many now are past the age of nurse bees per the 25 day brood break.) and remembering NO reinforcements of fresh hatching nurse bees (because all eggs, larvae, and brood sources have been removed), there would not be much left to work with? The new brood, (after the brood break) in order to be viable and healthy along with a goodly number, need a good supply of nurse bees feeding the fresh larva. Does this not mean the queen will lay fewer eggs in this hive because of these reasons? As opposed to a hive with high numbers of nurse bees in which such a hive has been allowed to keep "bees on order" quoting Mr HoneyPump?
Starting over again behind the 8 ball, without the force needed, does not seem very promising to me? From what I understand the bees will not raise more larva that the nurse bees can take care of at any given time?
If all the above is true, now where does that leave us? Wouldn't that leave us with fewer larva being raised when the queen is reintroduced? Plus, remember; We still have the 60% of viable remaining fertile mites which are on the remaining bees to deal with, these mites will go right back to housekeeping, full speed ahead laying in the new brood? Would this not leave us worse off than when we started? And to add to this situation I will ask; If we still have the need to go back and use OAV or some other chemical, be it natural and organic or some other more harsh chemical, what have we accomplished?
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Thanks Member and AR.
Actually I had those points, which are highlighted in green, in mind when I posted my above reply. While it is true that we will reduce a large portions of female mites which may be beneath capped brood, we do not reduce the number of female mites which may be on the outside of capped brood, left in the hive to feed on workers, after removing brood. If the German Scientist is correct as reported by AR, "1 to 2% per day. With a brood break of 25 days they figure that 40% of the varroa that are on adult bees during a brood break are lost", that means we still have 60% mites ready and available to go back to the business or reproducing when the 25 day time period is up, according to this German Scientist, Ralph Blucher, using his numbers.
Now how long do worker bees live as opposed to the 25 day withholding of brood from this hive? What percent of workers will also be lost each day? I suggest if what I have been taught, the number of viable worker bees will be reduced at a much higher percent than that of the percentage of varroa mites in the same time frame? Not to mention the Oh So critical
number or the right age nurse bees that will mature to the level of worker bee status during this time.
According to Jack Skinner UT. "workers live 5-6 weeks". Since all bees are not the same age then boom. Doesn't look very promising to me. With all these worker bees lost and even more importantly, the remaining of lack of nurse bees, because many now, are past the age of nurse bees, plus NO reinforcements of fresh hatching nurse bees, there would not be much left to work with? The new brood, to be viable and healthy along with a goodly number, need a good supply of nurse bees feeding the fresh larva. Wouldn't that mean the queen will lay fewer eggs in this hive than a normal hive with high numbers of nurse bees in a which may have been allowed to keep "bees on order" quoting Mr HoneyPump? Starting over again behind the 8 ball, without the force needed, does not seem very promising to me? From what I understand the bees will not raise more larva that the nurse bees can take care of at any given time?
If all the above is true, now where does that leave us? Wouldn't that leave us with fewer larva being raised when the queen is reintroduced? Plus remembering we still have the 60% of viable remaining fertile mites to deal with, going right back to housekeeping, full speed ahead laying in the new brood? Would this not leave us worse off than when we started? And after all of this, if we still have the need to go back and use OAV or some other chemical, be it natural and organic or some other more harsh chemical, what have we accomplished?
I'm not exactly following all your questions and your entire line of thinking, Phillip, but if, as AR said, 40% of the mites are taken care of just by a brood break AND you are using the trapping comb to get more, that sounds pretty good to me. I think this number is probably optimistic and relies on everything timing out exactly right, but I believe Bucheler said that you can get as much as a 90% reduction with the trapping comb, because most of the mites on the adult nurse bees will enter the brood to reproduce. As far as the ages and lifespans of the adult bees, if you do the trapping treatment when it's most effective, which is before the hives raises the first batch of winter bees, it doesn't really matter if the last batch of already short-lived summer workers have shortened lives. On top of that, remember that the foragers can revert to being nurse bees if need be, so as long as the worker bee population isn't drastically reduced and the hive is already well supplied with stores, there should be enough bees to raise the first crop of winter workers. That's how I see it anyway.
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>I'm not exactly following all your questions and your entire line of thinking, Phillip,
Without going into detail, again, I am suggesting; Yes many mites will be taken out with the complete removal of brood for 25 days with 40 percent of remaining mites on the bees dropping according to Blucher as reported by AR, leaving 60% of mites to start up again when the 25 day period is up and the queen goes back to laying.
In reality the percentage of loss of bees must also be considered in this time frame. Bees are steady dying and not one is being replaced and many of the remaining ones are at the point of dying off at the end of this 25 day cycle as well, due to their age in comparison to their lifespan. At the same time many crucial nurse bees graduated into worker bees, losing the the much needed force to feed new brood when the time comes after 25 days of brood break.There will be only a small percent of nurse bees available after the 25 day brood break to feed new fresh larvae.
Probably a higher percentage loss of bees than mites has occurred in this 25 day time frame. Because as stated with sources in my prior two the detailed post, mites can live for months when not reproducing, living on bees as they are doing in this 25 day brood break, Bees only live 5-6 weeks. That means the remaining bees in the hive is losing ground to the mites in this hive. Big disadvantage.
When the queen goes back to laying, there will only be a fraction of nurse bees and a depleted amount of worker bees to attend to new larva. Meaning fewer eggs laid and a slow start to new build up. And the real kicker is remembering 60 percent of mites are available to reinfest this low amount of brood. Now, since I have done a quick explanation, please go back and read my post 35 and 38 (with the added quotes from these experts along with highlighted words and you should receive a clear picture of what I am suggesting and asking my friend. As this quick explanation is leaving off some very important details. :smile:
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Great points Ben.
imho, your logic is sound and solid on this topic. I encourage you to stay the course of your line of thinking for your bees' sake. Others may do what they will. You have shown clearly to know what is best for yours.
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Probably a higher percentage loss of bees than mites has occurred in this 25 day time frame.
This is what I needed, I now understand what your concern is. And a valid concern at that, especially for a hive that isn't overly strong heading into the winter already. I'm anxious to experiment with the method again next year, and see the what the results will be in the field, as it were.
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>The reason I'm doing it (or attempting to do it) is that I'd like to be completely chemical free.
I understand. I don't use oxalic, nor do I do a brood break. I use natural comb, natural food as much as I can, local feral survivors for stock and no treatments. As far as removing brood, the one advantage to removing worker brood is you need to have mites that prefer drones. Removing drone brood selects for Varroa that prefer workers...
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Great points Ben.
imho, your logic is sound and solid on this topic. I encourage you to stay the course of your line of thinking for your bees' sake. Others may do what they will. You have shown clearly to know what is best for yours.
Thank you Mr HoneyPump. That means tons coming from you. I went back and changed some of the misspelling in order to cut down on the confusion. Those post were long and I was in a hurry using my phone when creating those post. Some grammar mistakes were made. Probably adding to my good friend Members confusion. The same message remains.
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>I do not see how the theory of brood break Treatment holds water, (Not much of a benefit)
Yet it seems to by all accounts. Mel Disselkoen believes it's because after a break the Varroa are all desperate to reproduce so as soon as there is brood to infest they overinfest it, killing the brood and themselves. I don't know if this is true or not, but it makes some sense.
Frankly I do none of this. I don't do brood breaks, though they can be done if timed correctly and make more honey because of it, I don't treat at all. And I don't have Varroa issues. You'll are trying to solve a problem I don't have...
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> Mel Disselkoen believes it's because after a break the Varroa are all desperate to reproduce so as soon as there is brood to infest they overinfest it, killing the brood and themselves. I don't know if this is true or not, but it makes some sense.
Yes this theory does make enough sense to be a possibility, but would that not mean we will theoretically turn the situation into a double, back to back, brood break? Once by the beekeepers manually removing the brood and the second, by mites killing the new brood (and being hygienic) bees pulling infested brood, at a double critical time? If so it seems like a lot of excess stress, especially if the hives was already in some degree of difficulty in the beginning?
> Frankly I do none of this. I don't do brood breaks, though they can be done if timed correctly and make more honey because of it, I don't treat at all. And I don't have Varroa issues. You'll are trying to solve a problem I don't have...
Thank you Mr Bush
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Well, I am beginning to feed to top off my colonies for winter, and I am seeing the results from caging the queen in July to create a brood break. I caged the queens in 4 colonies 28 days before I planned to do mite treatments in August. The remaining 8 colonies were managed in the usual manner of allowing the queens free range in a medium and a deep hive configuration.
When I released the queens I treated all the colonies in the apiary with HopGuard 3. Using HopGuard 3 was a big mistake, it gave a poor kill (about 45% based on alcohol washes), and caused the bees to react in a way I have never seen before. In all colonies the bees completely abandoned the frames on which the HopGuard was placed. They clustered outside on the face of the colony, and 4 colonies the queens were lost. All colonies stopped rearing brood for the 14 days the strips were in. Two colonies failed to requeen themselves, dwindled down to the point they failed to survive.
The 4 colonies that underwent the queen caging are now my strongest colonies both in adult bees and frames of brood. If these 4 colonies survive the winter I intend to again do the caging before the summer mite treatments. I used a simple cage made from hardware cloth, 8 mesh, hung between the center frames of the brood box to hold the queens.
Instead of caging the queens in July I think it would be better to cage the middle of June when the nectar flow is winding down and the temps are not quite so high. I am still undecided on what type of treatment to use after the queens are released, chemical or trapping combs.
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AR did you remove all your brood when you caged those queens? Or did you simply just cage the queens?
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I just caged the queens.
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I just caged the queens.
Thanks AR. I think that would work better than removing the brood, and it did as you have shown. With the brood allowed to remain in your hive, you still had, as Mr HP put it as bees on order. Hopguard must be some rough stuff. I for one, know nothing about it. Just for discussion sake, since you caged the queens for 28 days, you had no new brood being developed from that point on through the 28 day caging. That means just before you released the queens all original brood, capped and uncapped were developed and hatched or emerged as some say, you created a true brood break . That means the mites had no brood to go to. During this 28 day time period, would this have been a good time to treat with OAV in intervals while the queen was caged? Then treating one last time at the end of the twenty eight day caging just after, or prior to the releasing the queen? Would this have taken care of all or most mites which were in the hive that are, or were hitchhiking on your bees? That way there would be no mites to infest the brand new larvae that the hive would be raising and a fresh new start. I appreciate VERY much you posting your caged queen results here on the topic, along with your hopguard experience.
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Yes, all of the varroa in the colony would be on adults. It would take probably 2 days for the queen to begin to lay, and then it would be 8 days before the larvae would be the right age for the varroa to enter the cells to reproduce.
I have no experience with OAV, I had intended to use the trickle method after the 28 day caging, but was talked into trying HopGuard 3. I intend to try the trickle method this coming year. The ideal situation to kill mites is when they are not in the brood, but I don't know what effect the treatments would have on a caged queen that was not in contact with nurse bees that could groom the acid from her body.
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>I don't know what effect the treatments would have on a caged queen
In that case a person could simply skip the interval treatments, treating only after the 28 day period is up when the queen is released if OAV was used.