Debating on late season split large hive

[AustinB]

My most thriving hive is 3 deeps tall, with bees and brood in all 3. My second most thriving is a double deep that is full as well. They are heavily loaded with pollen and capped honey. I am trying to make a decision on how to handle them this fall / winter. In the past I have typically just built them up to be strong with sufficient stores to overwintered in 2 or even 3 brood boxes. In the past I had always thought good populations, stores, strong hive better for the spring. But I see a lot of talk about treating and splitting this time of year and overwintering with 1 deep. I do like the idea of brood breaks to drop mite loads, and of course like the idea of heading into spring with more hives. Currently I have not treated them or performed a mite check. I plan to do so in the next week or so, but I want to get my plan of action ironed out first. I'm more interested in the experience based feedback of "here is what I do" vs the proverbial "just do this" feedback. I am interested to know what you do and why, and how happy you are with the results. I know even the veteran guys tend to change protocol over the years at times.   

[Ben Framed]

My most thriving hive is 3 deeps tall, with bees and brood in all 3. My second most thriving is a double deep that is full as well. They are heavily loaded with pollen and capped honey. I am trying to make a decision on how to handle them this fall / winter. In the past I have typically just built them up to be strong with sufficient stores to overwintered in 2 or even 3 brood boxes. In the past I had always thought good populations, stores, strong hive better for the spring. But I see a lot of talk about treating and splitting this time of year and overwintering with 1 deep. I do like the idea of brood breaks to drop mite loads, and of course like the idea of heading into spring with more hives. Currently I have not treated them or performed a mite check. I plan to do so in the next week or so, but I want to get my plan of action ironed out first. I'm more interested in the experience based feedback of "here is what I do" vs the proverbial "just do this" feedback. I am interested to know what you do and why, and how happy you are with the results. I know even the veteran guys tend to change protocol over the years at times.

Austin this time of year, is good for doing what you intend to do, split, 'IF' your area is set up and ripe for it during this time. An abundant supply of pollen, nectar, and drones, (drones if you are adding queen cells to these splits), are needed and imperative just as they are needed in the spring to make 'good successful splits'. However, in August these resources might not be readily available in your area. 'The first two are not in my area'. If not you will need to be prepared to feed sucrose syrup and pollen sub added to your splits.  You will need plenty of drones. It is taught that drones meet in a certain drone congregation areas for virgin queens to find and mate (away from the home apiary). I have learned from experts here that VQ will also mate with drones from the same yard as well. So, just to be safe, check to make sure your very own yard (in your location) has plenty of drones. If so, most likely and hopefully, this will help insure neighboring colonies in your area will have drones as well, congerated in their location for the VQ to find and mate. If drones are scarce, you might consider introducing mated queens to your splits in August as needed depending of the the amount of splits you intent to make from each existing colony. This is just what I did my first year, (bought mated queens). I made 5 splits from one colony in September. And everyone came through winter strong and healthy (but I did things the way to help insure they did). A whole different subject.

I refrain here. 

[AustinB]

Austin this time of year, is good for doing what you intend to do, split, 'IF' your area is set up and ripe for it during this time. An abundant supply of pollen, nectar, and drones, (drones if you are adding queen cells to these splits), are needed and imperative just as they are needed in the spring to make 'good successful splits'. However, in August these resources might not be readily available in your area. 'The first two are not in my area'. If not you will need to be prepared to feed sucrose syrup and pollen sub added to your splits.  You will need plenty of drones. It is taught that drones meet in a certain drone congregation areas for virgin queens to find and mate (away from the home apiary). I have learned from experts here that VQ will also mate with drones from the same yard as well. So, just to be safe, check to make sure your very own yard (in your location) has plenty of drones. If so, most likely and hopefully, this will help insure neighboring colonies in your area will have drones as well, congerated in their location for the VQ to find and mate. If drones are scarce, you might consider introducing mated queens to your splits in August as needed depending of the the amount of splits you intent to make from each existing colony. This is just what I did my first year, (bought mated queens). I made 5 splits from one colony in September. And everyone came through winter strong and healthy (but I did things the way to help insure they did). A whole different subject.

Good to know! I have noticed a good number of drones in all of my hives thus far, and there are at least 40 hives within a mile of me that I assume are still hopping.  That's encouraging that you split into 5 in September and all made it through. Being in VA we occasionally get some cold winters, though the colder temps don't typically hold for long periods of time. I'm thinking about simply  treating the hives first, splitting the big hives down into individual deeps, making sure resources are balanced between them, and allow the queenless splits to raise their own.
Resources here are still decent, though not abundant, and I am equipped to feed. The thing is I have never done end of summer splits before and don't have any experience with it. I am nervous because I don't want to get to spring and kick myself for the decision haha.

[AustinB]

Also Ben, no need to refrain 
I am interested in techniques and tips from those who perform successful manipulations (such as yourself) on their own hives under the given conditions

[FloridaGardener]

In NW Florida panhandle I just split my largest hives so they don't swarm.  They just put out half to full [medium] frames of capped drones. 

The bees get busy reorganizing, and if the flow slows don't they aren't so restless.

Sabal palm is ending.  Liriope is big as an ornamental here, there's lots of it, and spanish needle ["native"] is blooming too.

[AustinB]

In NW Florida panhandle I just split my largest hives so they don't swarm.  They just put out half to full [medium] frames of capped drones. 

The bees get busy reorganizing, and if the flow slows don't they aren't so restless.

Sabal palm is ending.  Liriope is big as an ornamental here, there's lots of it, and spanish needle ["native"] is blooming too.

I know your season is a lot longer than ours, but how late will you perform a split?

[FloridaGardener]

I have not been successful with queen emergence past September 15. 

In Sept., it's still 85-90 degrees daytime, and goldenrod is out. 

If these capped drones are out on, say, Aug 1....and flying for 6 weeks....that could be the math.

[mark]

split last year in august queen emerged on the 16th.  check showed eggs and brood on the 28th.  splitting a colony that strong should be fine.  overwintered a single 10 frame box with only 8 frames of bees.

[TheHoneyPump]

Imho. 
Main hive splits without a mated queen are risky, at anytime.  Queen rearing success is not 100 percent.  Some folks do well some do poorly. The Average across a large base would be in the 60 percent range. Regardless of time of year.  So if you are thinking of walk away splits, be prepared for failure, have a backout plan, and the having to wait a month (or more) to find out.
Alternatively making splits with mated queens is an entirely different league, low risk, high success and short timeline.
You can buy mated queens and do your splits. OR you can raise your own queens - in nucs - and when those are laying then do your big hive splits.
As for the - what I would do - answer .. well I would not ever consider a main hive split without a queen in my pocket or without a ready2go nucleus colony under my arm.  If I had neither, I would take pause and skim some nucs off the hives and wait for those nuc queens.  Then do the splits. If I want two queens, I would make 4 or even 5 nucs, then wait a month and go see what I got out of them.
Timing and probability of success of the nucs would be regional and folks near you can give some key dates for your area. 
My 2c is that if one wanted the best chances of being successful then I would not consider W.A.S., rather play the odds in the nucs instead of risking the hives.
For your considerations. Hope that helps .. in some way.

[Ben Framed]

My 2c is that if one wanted the best chances of being successful then I would not consider W.A.S., rather play the odds in the nucs instead of risking the hives.

Or if you are determined to continue with W.A.S. ,  do so with double screen dividing board. In case all fails as pointed out by HP. You can simply remove the double screen divider board and the colony is still safely intact.

[AustinB]

HoneyPump - Thanks for the feedback. Admittedly I have been thinking about buying already mated local queens to add to the splits since its so late to help ensure that they will take, and not have to wait 4 precious weeks to see if it took.
As far as starting nucs, I don' t have much experience with that. I tried that once and it went sideways, they got completely robbed. In retrospect I probably should have put the small nuc in a separate yard away from the strong hives. I'll have to do some research on creating a few small nucs from a larger strong hive. However with this being the end of the season, how well would small nucs fair over winter? I assume the smaller number of bees the more difficult it would be for them to maintain hive temperature during winter especially if some are dying off.

[Beeboy01]

I'm with HP on making nucs instead of splits to protect the main hives. I have also found that it is a good way to keep late season swarming down. With hives that large you should still be able to make decent single deep walk away splits and if there are commercial queens available it will give you a chance to add some new genetics to your yard. I would think a lot would depend on if you can locate any queens. Sometimes making nucs can be tricky so go with what you are comfortable with. It's getting to be mid season and plan accordingly in case there are problems.   

[AustinB]

Thanks to all for the feedback. I think I'm leaning toward using some of the resources from the larger hives to make a few new nucs, most likely with already mated queens.

[TheHoneyPump]

The purpose of the nucs suggestion is to get the queens made and mated (to use in the splits) without risking alot of bees and resources to the failure percentage. 
If you have mated queens, then just go ahead and do the full sized splits. For best results do the splits at least 8 weeks before your winter tuck-in dates. That timing is needed for the nest and population balance to get established before winter.

[Ben Framed]

Admittedly I have been thinking about buying already mated local queens to add to the splits since its so late to help ensure that they will take, and not have to wait 4 precious weeks to see if it took.
As far as starting nucs, I don' t have much experience with that. I tried that once and it went sideways, they got completely robbed. In retrospect I probably should have put the small nuc in a separate yard away from the strong hives. I'll have to do some research on creating a few small nucs from a larger strong hive. However with this being the end of the season, how well would small nucs fair over winter? I assume the smaller number of bees the more difficult it would be for them to maintain hive temperature during winter especially if some are dying off.

> I have been thinking about buying already mated local queens to add to the splits since its so late to help ensure that they will take

That is what I did as described in reply 1.  "you might consider introducing mated queens to your splits in August." "This is just what I did my first year, (bought mated queens). I made 5 splits from one colony in September. And everyone came through winter strong and healthy (but I did things the way to help insure they did). A whole different subject."

> As far as starting nucs, I don't have much experience with that. I tried that once and it went sideways, they got completely robbed.

Timing along with location go hand in hand during late summer and early fall, making strong 5 frame splits is advised for your area.  Remember robbing is not the only concern you will have during late splits in your/my area. Don't forget SHB. If possible it is better in my opinion to the have nuc yards away from your main beeyard 'if possible' if you are not in a flow. As you will need to feed which can promote or trigger robbing. I had a fall flow in the September split situation described above. In my case I played the odds and came out of winter with 5 hives in place of the one. Learned this from Michael Palmer.

>  However with this being the end of the season, how well would small nucs fair over winter?

Again, I would not make late season nucs any smaller than 5 frames for my area. Your winter weather being as you described, ("Being in VA we occasionally get some cold winters, though the colder temps don't typically hold for long periods of time."), is similar to mine.
Pollen and or pollen sub, when incoming pollen plays out, along with 'slow' fed sucrose, and a 'good queen', will build up brood into November in my area. Strongly!

> I assume the smaller number of bees the more difficult it would be for them to maintain hive temperature during winter especially if some are dying off.

In Spring it is easier to build smaller nucs, time and nature are on your side. During late season stronger splits are 'it'; in my opinion.  You need a good fast population buildup "with this being the end of the season". They will only build up what they can nurse and maintain at the time. The stronger the split the better for obvious reasons, especially in late season. Time, resources (whether natural or fed), and a 'good queen'... As stated, you need these splits strong and built up going into winter..
 

[AustinB]

Thanks guys. What about treating? Should that be done beforehand while the hives are large, or after splits are made?

[Beeboy01]

When to treat depends on what you are using. Some types of mitacide strips can adversely affect the hive while other treatments are a lot less detrimental to it's growth. I would treat after splitting once they have stabilized and the queen is laying. 

[AustinB]

When to treat depends on what you are using. Some types of mitacide strips can adversely affect the hive while other treatments are a lot less detrimental to it's growth. I would treat after splitting once they have stabilized and the queen is laying.

Planning on using Formic Pro

[Ben Framed]

When to treat depends on what you are using. Some types of mitacide strips can adversely affect the hive while other treatments are a lot less detrimental to it's growth. I would treat after splitting once they have stabilized and the queen is laying.

Planning on using Formic Pro

Austin I will not say much on this, but I will say, being its August I would not recommend using formic pro. Formic is very effective but also very tricky and contradictory to queens when its hot weather. (Just what you do not need in my opinion).You might want to heed the advice of others, before you use Fromic Pro in August. There has been several topics started or discussed on this subject, even since my short time of beekeeping here. Check the archives; Or even better, you may hear from some of our friends and old pros here at beemaster chiming in for your aid...

[AustinB]

When to treat depends on what you are using. Some types of mitacide strips can adversely affect the hive while other treatments are a lot less detrimental to it's growth. I would treat after splitting once they have stabilized and the queen is laying.

Planning on using Formic Pro

Austin I will not say much on this, but I will say, being its August I would not recommend using formic pro. Formic is very effective but also very tricky and contradictory to queens when its hot weather. (Just what you do not need in my opinion).You might want to heed the advice of others, before you use Fromic Pro in August. There has been several topics started or discussed on this subject, even since my short time of beekeeping here. Check the archives; Or even better, you may hear from some of our friends and old pros here at beemaster chiming in for your aid...

Thanks Ben. I'll have to search it and do some reading. I have read the instructions on their website related to heat and vaporization, I'll have to do some more digging 

[The15thMember]

When to treat depends on what you are using. Some types of mitacide strips can adversely affect the hive while other treatments are a lot less detrimental to it's growth. I would treat after splitting once they have stabilized and the queen is laying.

Planning on using Formic Pro

Austin I will not say much on this, but I will say, being its August I would not recommend using formic pro. Formic is very effective but also very tricky and contradictory to queens when its hot weather. (Just what you do not need in my opinion).You might want to heed the advice of others, before you use Fromic Pro in August. There has been several topics started or discussed on this subject, even since my short time of beekeeping here. Check the archives; Or even better, you may hear from some of our friends and old pros here at beemaster chiming in for your aid...

I've used FormicPro several times, and all with good success.  I'm planning on using it this year again as well.  I have never used it on a split-sized hive or a nuc, so I can't speak to that.  I would definitely wait for temperatures toward the lower end of the recommended spectrum.  I have only ever used it in the fall, with temps in the 70's or high 60's, and I've done well with it, but as many people have complained about the product being overly strong, I'd be slow to use it at high temperatures, since the temperature affects the release time of the vapor.   

[Ben Framed]

When to treat depends on what you are using. Some types of mitacide strips can adversely affect the hive while other treatments are a lot less detrimental to it's growth. I would treat after splitting once they have stabilized and the queen is laying.

Planning on using Formic Pro

Austin I will not say much on this, but I will say, being its August I would not recommend using formic pro. Formic is very effective but also very tricky and contradictory to queens when its hot weather. (Just what you do not need in my opinion).You might want to heed the advice of others, before you use Fromic Pro in August. There has been several topics started or discussed on this subject, even since my short time of beekeeping here. Check the archives; Or even better, you may hear from some of our friends and old pros here at beemaster chiming in for your aid...

I've used FormicPro several times, and all with good success.  I'm planning on using it this year again as well.  I have never used it on a split-sized hive or a nuc, so I can't speak to that.  I would definitely wait for temperatures toward the lower end of the recommended spectrum. I have only ever used it in the fall, with temps in the 70's or high 60's, and I've done well with it, but as many people have complained about the product being overly strong, I'd be slow to use it at high temperatures, since the temperature affects the release time of the vapor.   

Good advice Member, from what I have gathered...

[AustinB]

I've used FormicPro several times, and all with good success.  I'm planning on using it this year again as well.  I have never used it on a split-sized hive or a nuc, so I can't speak to that.  I would definitely wait for temperatures toward the lower end of the recommended spectrum.  I have only ever used it in the fall, with temps in the 70's or high 60's, and I've done well with it, but as many people have complained about the product being overly strong, I'd be slow to use it at high temperatures, since the temperature affects the release time of the vapor.   

15th - Thanks for the info. I've been doing a lot of reading past few days on FP and seen reviews from all over the spectrum as you can imagine haha.
I know a lot of people treat in the July-August timeframe. Is there a downside to treating later towards the fall when the weather cools?

[The15thMember]

15th - Thanks for the info. I've been doing a lot of reading past few days on FP and seen reviews from all over the spectrum as you can imagine haha.
I know a lot of people treat in the July-August timeframe. Is there a downside to treating later towards the fall when the weather cools?

Well obviously you want to treat early enough that you have healthy bees to raise the winter bees, and if you have a severe infestation the product is less effective at lower temps.  But that said the product is very potent, even penetrates brood cappings, and I have personally used it on pretty bad infestations in lower temps and had it work fine.  I will be looking for consistent highs in the low 70's to treat this year.