Deeps to Mediums

[blue tick]

I am looking for info from those who have successfully swapped their deep frame hives to mediums on what method you used. My 6yo is showing real interest in helping me with my current hives and I'm looking into making the swap in order to make things a little easier for her while/when she's helping me. Any thoughts and ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Michael Bush]

First, I would say if you are changing frame size and combs then I would also change cell size to either natural comb or small cell at the same time.  It will be the same amount of work.  It just requires that you use either small cell foundation or foundationless frames.

The concept, of course, is to get to a point where all of the old combs (deeps, large cell etc.) are out and all of the ones you want (small cell and mediums) are what you now have.  So first, you need to view all of what you don't want as a liability to be eliminated and all of what you do want as an asset.  During a flow anything but brood is fair game to remove.  During a dearth, honey and pollen are assets.  At any time brood is an asset.  At any time you can remove empty frames.  There are several ways you can deal with any given deep frame.  You can leave them in a deep and any excess that can't be filled with a deep (because you pulled them out) you can fill in with a medium.  This is what I tend to do if there are more deeps than mediums.  If you have more mediums than deeps, you can put the deeps in two medium boxes (it will hang down into the medium box below).  If you have only one or two deeps with brood you can cut the comb to fit a medium frame and rubber band it into the medium frame.  You can also get the queen and a couple of frames of brood on the other side of an excluder from the frames you wish to remove and wait for the brood to emerge in those frames and then remove them from the hive.  These are the concepts.

So now to begin.  The easiest time to begin is probably the first warm flying day in the spring.  On a warm day you can look in the hive and pull any frame that is empty.  You may have an entire box worth of empty deeps.  Early in the spring there has been no flow to start refilling them and brood rearing is just getting into gear probably.  The sooner you get the queen on the other side of an excluder from the combs you wish to remove, the better.  If you have drawn medium frames, then try to get the queen on those.  It's kind of early at lest in my part of the world to expect them to draw comb but they will be in about a month.  So if you just keep removing empty frames until then, and after the flow gets into full swing you can steal any deeps with pollen and honey and harvest the honey.  The pollen you can feed to the chickens (assuming there are any chickens) or cut them out and tie them into mediums (rubber bands probably...).  Then applying the principles above you juggle things until all the boxes are full of frames.  Later if you had comb on the bottom of a medium frame that was in a deep box, you can cut it off and rubber band it into a medium frame.  If you have comb on the bottom of a deep (that was in two medium boxes) you can cut that off and rubber band it into a medium frame.

I don't know how to just make it a step by step unless I make assumptions about some brute force method, but that is also a possibility.  You can simply do a "cut out" where you cut every frame of brood to fit a medium and rubber band all the combs into mediums and harvest all the honey and scrap or cutout all the pollen.  If you have thin strips of brood left over you can put several in a frame to fill it out.  This would be a "brute force" method and you could do it in an afternoon as long as there is a decent amount of nectar and pollen available. 

A scaled back version of this is to cutout two combs of brood and put those with the queen on them on the other side of an excluder and wait for all the brood in the deeps to emerge and then pull them all.

If you don't want to do any cut outs of combs, then you could pull empty frames, replace with mediums and wait for the queen to be laying in some of the mediums and then pull those above an excluder.

All in all, I play it by ear and juggle it the best I can without stealing brood from them.

[paus]

I think changing to 8 frame may a solution, obviously the 8 frame deep is heaver than the 10 frame med but it may a welcome comprise this may be a simplified out look but .. , also your 6yo will grow   If you are already using 8 frame Then Michael's will certainly work what ever you are using.  I am currently making a two year project of converting a top bar to Lang.

[TheHoneyPump]

First questions that beg are:

How many hives, how many boxes, timeline? Subsequent questions and comments really depend on the scale of equipment changeover being considered. 
One method suits a few hives/boxes. Another method is better suited for many boxes.

The 8 frame suggestion is imho the best option. Just cut down the width of the boxes you have. Cut them, screw back together. No new equipment need be bought nor developed. No frames to draw, no frames to throw out. No loss of resources and bee energy having to draw new combs.  You could even cut them back to 6 frame for even easier handling.

The real -equity- of an apiary is the comb. The frames. Going to narrower boxes maintains the equity you have at minimal expense (some screws) and no loss of that comb equity. Changing frame depth size is a significant expense in cash from you and energy/resources from the bees to draw them before they can use them, as well as losses of the equity in what is being disposed of. For this reasoning, the rational choice for an already established apiary looking to resize to lighter boxes to handle is go to narrower boxes.

However, if you are ready with cash in hand for new equipment and ready to throw away what is in place now; Then the simplest, least amount of work for you, is to -bottom- box the hives in the new size.  Lift the deeps and plop one new medium box underneath right on the bottom board. As the hive draws out the new box and expands, moving down, lift the whole hive and again plop one new medium box on the bottom board. Repeat adding the new box to the bottom board. In this way the deeps are being moved up on the hive stack. The brood emerges from them and the frames get depleted of pollens etc as the nest moves down in the new boxes. Eventually, the deeps are sitting as the top boxes of the hive and are full of honey. At that point remove and extract them. They are gone from your operation with minimal effort and the beauty of no appreciable frame modifications/manipulations. Note that the height of the deep box can be cut down to be a medium.  So you can get some repurposing of the boxes.  The deep frames however tend to be too much work to be worth modifying. After they are extracted, stack them and store until a day when you will melt them down.


Imho
Hope that helps with a few ideas. Let us know what you decide to do.

[van from Arkansas]

Blue Tick {My 6yo is showing real interest in helping me with my current hives and I'm looking into making the swap in order to make things a little easier for her while/when she's helping me.}

I am always impressed when dads, Mr. Blue Tick, involve their kid with honey bees.  Your daughter will probably appreciate honeybees all her life and learn things about nature that most kids will have no knowledge.  Blessings to you, Sir.

As far as switching to mediums, good detailed advice has already been provided.
Cheers

[blue tick]

First, I would say if you are changing frame size and combs then I would also change cell size to either natural comb or small cell at the same time.  It will be the same amount of work.  It just requires that you use either small cell foundation or foundationless frames.

The concept, of course, is to get to a point where all of the old combs (deeps, large cell etc.) are out and all of the ones you want (small cell and mediums) are what you now have.  So first, you need to view all of what you don't want as a liability to be eliminated and all of what you do want as an asset.  During a flow anything but brood is fair game to remove.  During a dearth, honey and pollen are assets.  At any time brood is an asset.  At any time you can remove empty frames.  There are several ways you can deal with any given deep frame.  You can leave them in a deep and any excess that can't be filled with a deep (because you pulled them out) you can fill in with a medium.  This is what I tend to do if there are more deeps than mediums.  If you have more mediums than deeps, you can put the deeps in two medium boxes (it will hang down into the medium box below).  If you have only one or two deeps with brood you can cut the comb to fit a medium frame and rubber band it into the medium frame.  You can also get the queen and a couple of frames of brood on the other side of an excluder from the frames you wish to remove and wait for the brood to emerge in those frames and then remove them from the hive.  These are the concepts.

So now to begin.  The easiest time to begin is probably the first warm flying day in the spring.  On a warm day you can look in the hive and pull any frame that is empty.  You may have an entire box worth of empty deeps.  Early in the spring there has been no flow to start refilling them and brood rearing is just getting into gear probably.  The sooner you get the queen on the other side of an excluder from the combs you wish to remove, the better.  If you have drawn medium frames, then try to get the queen on those.  It's kind of early at lest in my part of the world to expect them to draw comb but they will be in about a month.  So if you just keep removing empty frames until then, and after the flow gets into full swing you can steal any deeps with pollen and honey and harvest the honey.  The pollen you can feed to the chickens (assuming there are any chickens) or cut them out and tie them into mediums (rubber bands probably...).  Then applying the principles above you juggle things until all the boxes are full of frames.  Later if you had comb on the bottom of a medium frame that was in a deep box, you can cut it off and rubber band it into a medium frame.  If you have comb on the bottom of a deep (that was in two medium boxes) you can cut that off and rubber band it into a medium frame.

I don't know how to just make it a step by step unless I make assumptions about some brute force method, but that is also a possibility.  You can simply do a "cut out" where you cut every frame of brood to fit a medium and rubber band all the combs into mediums and harvest all the honey and scrap or cutout all the pollen.  If you have thin strips of brood left over you can put several in a frame to fill it out.  This would be a "brute force" method and you could do it in an afternoon as long as there is a decent amount of nectar and pollen available. 

A scaled back version of this is to cutout two combs of brood and put those with the queen on them on the other side of an excluder and wait for all the brood in the deeps to emerge and then pull them all.

If you don't want to do any cut outs of combs, then you could pull empty frames, replace with mediums and wait for the queen to be laying in some of the mediums and then pull those above an excluder.

All in all, I play it by ear and juggle it the best I can without stealing brood from them.

Thank you for the full explanation. I would prefer to not use "brute force" to accomplish this. My only reason behind considering this is due to my 6yo daughter showing strong interest and I'd like to make the equipment easier for her to handle now, even though I am always right there. Add to that my wife is an Ag teacher and 3 of her students are showing interest and I am going to help them as well.

I saw the 2 medium method you mentioned somewhere ( can't remember what forum/group) and have thought about do that and just keeping the bottoms of the deep frames clean as the process goes. Removing the frame on the outer edge and replacing with a new medium for as long as it would take the process to complete. I would then depending on what kind of frames come with these nucs, either cut the comb out and rubberband into new frames or possibly cut down the old deep frames and install a new bottom bar.

Or, I've thought about building a "shim" setup of some type to attach a medium box to the top of the 6 frame nuc box that I'll be getting. Thank you for the response and I'm sure I'll be putting 1 of these methods to work. Just have to decide which one and the the doing it.

[blue tick]

I think changing to 8 frame may a solution, obviously the 8 frame deep is heaver than the 10 frame med but it may a welcome comprise this may be a simplified out look but .. , also your 6yo will grow   If you are already using 8 frame Then Michael's will certainly work what ever you are using.  I am currently making a two year project of converting a top bar to Lang.

I am currently using all 10 frame equipment, deeps for brood and mediums for supers. The more I think on this, the more I think I'd like to have all uniform frames and could pull, swap or drop any into any box needed. Then I could table saw the deeps down for more mediums.

[blue tick]

First questions that beg are:

How many hives, how many boxes, timeline? Subsequent questions and comments really depend on the scale of equipment changeover being considered. 
One method suits a few hives/boxes. Another method is better suited for many boxes.

The 8 frame suggestion is imho the best option. Just cut down the width of the boxes you have. Cut them, screw back together. No new equipment need be bought nor developed. No frames to draw, no frames to throw out. No loss of resources and bee energy having to draw new combs.  You could even cut them back to 6 frame for even easier handling.

The real -equity- of an apiary is the comb. The frames. Going to narrower boxes maintains the equity you have at minimal expense (some screws) and no loss of that comb equity. Changing frame depth size is a significant expense in cash from you and energy/resources from the bees to draw them before they can use them, as well as losses of the equity in what is being disposed of. For this reasoning, the rational choice for an already established apiary looking to resize to lighter boxes to handle is go to narrower boxes.

However, if you are ready with cash in hand for new equipment and ready to throw away what is in place now; Then the simplest, least amount of work for you, is to -bottom- box the hives in the new size.  Lift the deeps and plop one new medium box underneath right on the bottom board. As the hive draws out the new box and expands, moving down, lift the whole hive and again plop one new medium box on the bottom board. Repeat adding the new box to the bottom board. In this way the deeps are being moved up on the hive stack. The brood emerges from them and the frames get depleted of pollens etc as the nest moves down in the new boxes. Eventually, the deeps are sitting as the top boxes of the hive and are full of honey. At that point remove and extract them. They are gone from your operation with minimal effort and the beauty of no appreciable frame modifications/manipulations. Note that the height of the deep box can be cut down to be a medium.  So you can get some repurposing of the boxes.  The deep frames however tend to be too much work to be worth modifying. After they are extracted, stack them and store until a day when you will melt them down.


Imho
Hope that helps with a few ideas. Let us know what you decide to do.

Thanks for the info. To be honest I haven't considered the 8 frame aspect. Currently, I have only a couple hives to deal with, single brood deep and 6 medium boxes I've been using for honey. My plan for spring was to split each of those to 4. I have 8 6 frame nucs coming this spring as well, so either way I'm needing to buy some new equipment whether to go with 8 frame boxes or switch to mediums, but I'm preparing now and buying boxes and frames each payday a few at a time. Come spring, I have what I need and am ready to role.

My 6yo is my main reasoning/thought of doing the smaller frame/lighter box setup. I can also toss in there that my wife is an Ag teacher and she has 3 or so students who are interested and I would be doing this do help them as well.

I guess a good question to ask would be, are 2 medium boxes sufficient enough to serve as the brood boxes? I don't want to venture down this rabbit hole and then end up having created more work for myself by thinking lighter is better. If that makes any sense. Would 2 8 frame deeps be sufficient enough for the brood boxes?

It would be no problem table sawing the deeps I currently have to repurpose them as mediums, or 8 frame deeps.

[TheHoneyPump]

Is this correct understanding of your total inventory?

Qty.     Type
2.     Deep 10 frame box with drawn frames
6.     Medium 10 frame box with drawn frames
2.   10 frame bottom board
2.   10 frame cover
8     Deep 6 frame box with foundation frames.
8.   6 frame bottom board
8.   6 frame cover
2.   Colonies hived in some of the above equipment

Personally, really not a fan of mediums in brood chambers. Imho, the frame depth is too restrictive and unnatural for the nest. The bottom of the frame ends right where the queen wants to lay the bulk of her patch under the resource arc.  All deeps over here. Hopefully someone with experience using mediums can comment.    2x 8 frame deeps is nearest to perfect nest size throughout the entire annual cycle.

A third  option to consider is to leave all as is. Setup the 2 new colonies in the 6 frame boxes, call those Sarah.s hives. (Whatever her name is). Also give her a paint brush and markers to doodle on them. Manage them by skimming off their excess strength, transferring frames to/from the 2 main hives all season.

[blue tick]

Is this correct understanding of your total inventory?

Qty.     Type
2.     Deep 10 frame box with drawn frames
6.     Medium 10 frame box with drawn frames
2.   10 frame bottom board
2.   10 frame cover
8     Deep 6 frame box with foundation frames.
8.   6 frame bottom board
8.   6 frame cover
2.   Colonies hived in some of the above equipment

Personally, really not a fan of mediums in brood chambers. Imho, the frame depth is too restrictive and unnatural for the nest. The bottom of the frame ends right where the queen wants to lay the bulk of her patch under the resource arc.  All deeps over here. Hopefully someone with experience using mediums can comment.    2x 8 frame deeps is nearest to perfect nest size throughout the entire annual cycle.

A third  option to consider is to leave all as is. Setup the 2 new colonies in the 6 frame boxes, call those Sarah.s hives. (Whatever her name is). Also give her a paint brush and markers to doodle on them. Manage them by skimming off their excess strength, transferring frames to/from the 2 main hives all season.

Yes, you are pretty close on what I have currently or what I have coming this spring as nucs. My thought process was looking to make the weight issue a little easier and uniformity of equipment. The more I'm thinking through this I may end up with all 8 frame equipment and even run deep supers with 7 frames. I want to be able to have the ability to swap from frames hive to hive if needed and not have to deal with different box sizes and frame sizes. I also prefer to has fewer frames to deal with when performing inspections.

[TheHoneyPump]

Then you should be most pleased with 8 frame deep as your standard for everything, including the supers.

[robirot]

Well from what you write there, you allready have drawn medium comb, do it the easy way.

In spring when your hives start to get out of winter, add two medium boxes with drawn comb and add some fondant. The bees will migrate into those and start raising brood in them. Once you see them raising brood up there, add an queen excluder to keep the queen in the mediums. Check 4-7 days later, for eggs in the medium, if you got 'em the queen is above the excluder and all you have to do now, is to remove the deep once you start supering. Brush all bee from the deep in front of the hive. If you have eggs in the deep, you will need to find the queen and put her above the excluder.

An other way would be, to run your hives like always (deep+med. supers).

When swarming season starts, get a new queen and brush 3 lb of bees from the supers into a package cage. Feed them for 3 days then put them into a hive with 2 boxes of foundation (2 foundationless per box) and feed them 2-3 gallons of Sirup.

The old deep can either bee sold as full hive or splitt into nucs. If you don't want to sell, search the queen, create a package with her (or a new queen) and break all queen cells. After 3 weeks all brood has emerged and the left over bees can be added to other hives or used for making an other package.

But i would just sell the whole hive and also get rid of the equipment.
A medium box is 5$ less (even less with non select stock wood), then a deep if you buy it, if you sell the deep you can nearly rebuy the new box ( and got a new box).