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Author Topic: Promoting brood during winter  (Read 2360 times)

Offline Aroc

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Promoting brood during winter
« on: November 06, 2018, 12:20:05 am »
One of our hives was hit pretty hard this past year by hornets and yellow jackets.  We ended up moving it to a friends place while we waited for the cooler weather to knock back the hornets. 

When we checked on her a about three weeks ago she had a pretty small cluster.  We figured there was no way she was going to survive the winter with that small a cluster up here so we decided to put her in our observation hive which happened to be vacant.

So my question is what can we do to promote some brood rearing to help increase the population?  She is a Saskatraz so a Carniolan mix.  She has shut down for now.  Can just 1:1 sugar syrup and a bit of pollen sub help? 

Not sure if anything we do will promote her to start laying again, but figured we could try. 
You are what you think.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2018, 07:30:35 am »
Aroc,
You can try feeding 1to1 but I?m not sure it will help. Having it inside can allow it to survive as a much smaller hive. I had one that I move into the observation hive several years ago that went down to a tennis ball size by December 22 and then sprung right back. December 22 is our spring start up date.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Offline beepro

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2018, 02:29:30 pm »
Dec. 26 after Christmas is our Spring up day.  There isn't much you can do to stimulate the
carnis queen to lay more this late.  I know for a fact that she will send out small patches of broods during
the entire winter when enough workers cover them.  So the more bees you have in the hive now the more winter bees she can raise.  Why not
go through your strong hives to see if you can rob a frame of bees from each hive to donate it?   You still need to
properly introduce the bees through.   Don't want a balling situation going on this late in the season!

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2018, 03:15:50 pm »
A hive having problems with being robbed by whatever is likely to have a deeper problem. i would not use resources on it.

what is your climate?

I would guess: there is nothing can be done at thi time of year. promoting brood rearing in winter if they need to cluster is no good idea.

Offline Aroc

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2018, 03:47:14 pm »
 Robbing frames of brood from another hive can?t be done this late. We have 4 inches of snow on the ground and 35?F. Going to be like this for a two weeks. Probably going to get colder. Guess I?ll just give her Syrup and see what happens.
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Offline beepro

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2018, 09:52:37 pm »
Well, if you think it cannot be done then it cannot.  I once baby sit a hive by robbing the newly emerged
bees and young nurse bees to keep the dwindling hive going until early Spring time..   Of course you have to pick the hives with
the most bees to do this say 6 frame of bees attached.   Since the young bees live longer in the winter with sugar supplement
feeding, this should keep the hive going.  If there is a chance that I think the hive will survive I will try.
You can try to see if this is possible in your long cold snowy winter!

Offline Aroc

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2018, 10:12:20 pm »
I?ll keep everyone informed.  Wish me luck.
You are what you think.

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2018, 03:10:12 am »
if they have feed in the combs, giving syrup will do more harm than good in your situation. they need to rest, not feed, not breed.
how large is the cluster at these temps? How many spaces between combs are occupied by the bees? or a picture from above.

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2018, 04:26:34 pm »
Rule number 1:  If you don't know what to do, do nothing.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline ed/La.

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2018, 07:32:33 pm »
Consider it a queen bank. A fun learning experience, cross your fingers and hope for the best. If the queen makes it you can give her some bees then.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2018, 12:06:23 pm »
One of our hives was hit pretty hard this past year by hornets and yellow jackets.  We ended up moving it to a friends place while we waited for the cooler weather to knock back the hornets. 

When we checked on her a about three weeks ago she had a pretty small cluster.  We figured there was no way she was going to survive the winter with that small a cluster up here so we decided to put her in our observation hive which happened to be vacant.

So my question is what can we do to promote some brood rearing to help increase the population?  She is a Saskatraz so a Carniolan mix.  She has shut down for now.  Can just 1:1 sugar syrup and a bit of pollen sub help? 

Not sure if anything we do will promote her to start laying again, but figured we could try.

You have done all that you could do for them.  Moved them into a smaller space.  Hoping that observation hive is also in a warm place. Reducing exposure.
Suggestions:  Insulate and close over the observation hive.  Keep it dark, keep it quiet, keep it warm but cool (50-60 degF).  Put a small ball of pollen and a jar of 2:1 syrup on for feed.  Leave, wait.
My experience with them ... It is unlikely that you will stimulate her (Carniolan, Sask) much at all until she feels it is time. This strain naturally winters on a very small cluster.  If you compare to Italians you would think the hive is weak or should have been culled.  It is not, quite the opposite.  Very different bees for winter.  It takes some getting used to this bee that winters on much smaller cluster and is much more frugal on winter stores.  The colony looks very different in the fall.  She will lay 20-100 eggs occasionally just to keep her equipment working and to keep things in the hive on a basic minimum rotation.  Other than that she likely will not do much of anything until some time after solstice pass. After that though, be ready for a staggering rapid population explosion in the spring.

So yes, you have done exactly what you should have.  Great job!  Put some minimalistic feed on the observation hive to support the small brood amount for a few months.  Be ready to move her back into a full box quickly in the spring.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 04:57:15 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Aroc

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2018, 05:13:07 pm »
 The cluster is larger than expected. Spotted queen. Also noted a small amount of uncapped brood. Mainly all on a single frame.  Decided not to do anything. There is honey and pollen on full frame.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 08:34:33 pm by Aroc »
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Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2018, 02:25:08 am »
why is the cluster all on one frame? I would have hoped for a picture from top onto the undisturbed frames. if they cluster in min. 5 spaces between comb, they may live if healthy.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2018, 06:27:50 am »
BF, they are now in an observation hive. Hence only a side view. If the O H is in your house, and they are not sick, they should make it through the winter. I have had much, much smaller bunch of bees make it through the winter in my observation hive.
Jim
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Offline Aroc

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2018, 10:52:46 am »
The OH is an 8 frame 2x4.  It was only 35 degrees out when we swapped from 10 frame Lang.  Put 2 frames in at a time.  Cluster was mainly between two frames so couldn?t really see them.  I feel better after seeing this cluster, spotting the queen and seeing a bit of brood.

They are all on this frame as the other side just has a couple wandering bees.

Thanks for everyone?s help.

I?ll keep posted throughout the cold season as now I figured how to post smaller pics.
You are what you think.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2018, 05:00:00 pm »
I search in my spare time, all over the world for information that hopefully will help lead me to become a better beekeeper as I'm sure many of you also do. I found the following form a South American channel.  This was a comment at the bottom after the video. This was written in Spanish. I translated by Google translate to English   
I found it to be interesting and a different twist for someone who gave it it their best shot, to save a small colony.

This guy  claims to have caught a small swarm,  he says with 50 bees and one queen late fall in his Argentina.  He built a special winter place for them, along with heat to help the small colony survive and thrive.  The heat was used to keep the eggs at the right temperature as there were not enough bees to cover the brood witch the queen would lay during the colder times.  Supposedly two years later, with effort and hard work, this little 50 bee swarm grew, through split and queen rearing to become a 30 hive apiary. The queen explanation, at the bottom, was just a description of how he raised his Queens for the next 29 hives which was not done during the winter but during the regular bee season from what I could understand.
Something different and kind of kin  to your (Arcos) situation?

This is from:  Camino al Agro
Youtube channel
May 10, 2016

This comment is by: Jose Alfredo Salvatori

Someone of the best beekeepers, can do the next feat if they have a little bit of intelligence?
Can at the beginning of autumn without having anything more than a queen and no more than 50 bees obtain at the end of the second year 30 strong beehives, plus several cores for sale and have it not in the field but in a city. And with the winter of Buenos Aires Argentina?

Think for a while before going ahead reading and find a way to do it.

If you can achieve this, as a beekeeper you could achieve anything.
In any subtropical climate. Almost without food, because in a large city with fields far away there is no food.

This question is not a joke.
I mean it.
Think.
Think.
Think.
Can not think of anything?

A few blows of their heads against the wall to see if something comes out.

I know that no good beekeeper would think of anything. But kick that little handful of bees with their queen.

About 20 years ago, living in the city, I saw that there were no bees in a single hive that I had left. I opened it and it was empty, without bees, without young, without honey. But I found in the excluding fence a handful of bees with their queen that would not spend 50 with much effort.
Remove hikes. I housed them on an empty square. Feed with sugar syrup and sugar protein paste, soy flour, brewer's yeast and I do not remember what else because I did several tests. Accrete camera.
I took a 220 volt transformer to 12 v. ((([I pricked them a bit and told them that if they did not reproduce they would continue picking to learn]))) I took those old laparitas from Christmas trees to filament, and I tried them until they shone weakly so as not to burn, and I placed under the bees. That little bit of bees could never warm the eggs that the queen put.
Put less than 10 eggs and in autumn
I took a metallic resistance from an electric heater and I tried different lengths until it warmed up well. I wrapped it in a stick and put it under the bees to give them more heat.
The new bees had already been born.
I took two phenolic platelets from the electronic printed circuits and put them in a sandwich with more resistance and added them. In the middle of winter I was filled with honeycomb on both sides.
Take another phenolic plate of something more than 7 cm x 25 cm, putting several resistances. At the end of August the nucleus was filled with bees. In the spring fill the drawer. Divided into three drawers, always feeding everything and heating. That year I got 8 to 9 strong beehives. In the second season I got 30 strong hives that I took to the field to collect honey. More several nuclei that I sold.
Transform tens of kg of sugar and a few kilowatts in 30 hives and several nuclei.
They must use their own ingenuity and not copy others. Because the one who uses his genius always takes the lead before the one who copies.

Haaaa .... I forgot the queens ....
I took a pot of one kg of empty ice cream, those styrofoam ones and I had it inside my bedroom.
 I put a temperature regulator, a transformer also inside because it also heats up. A resistance screwed on a stick. A small can of water with a cloth protruding from the water to give it moisture. The groves sealed inside plastic rollers for the hair lodge in the pot and wait to be born. Then perfect, before they were born, I put some nurse bees with honey to feed the queens when they were born in case I could not immediately install in nucleus
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14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2018, 05:36:53 pm »
When I first started reading it and saw 50 bees and a queen I thinking much too small to rear brood, unable to keep it warm.  There is a minimum critical mass size for a colony to be able to grow.  Below that, it simply dwindles out.  Looks like the guy built a bee-egg incubator.  Nice!  The second concern is age of bees, if too old they may not be able to feed the larvae because their glands capacity is much reduced.  But ... with patience and help of incubator, I suppose they could raise a few then those new bees become nurses then some more then some more then some more ... all way up to 30 hives.  Awesome patience.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2018, 05:41:26 pm »
The OH is an 8 frame 2x4.  It was only 35 degrees out when we swapped from 10 frame Lang.  Put 2 frames in at a time.  Cluster was mainly between two frames so couldn?t really see them.  I feel better after seeing this cluster, spotting the queen and seeing a bit of brood.

They are all on this frame as the other side just has a couple wandering bees.

Thanks for everyone?s help.

I?ll keep posted throughout the cold season as now I figured how to post smaller pics.

Kool. 8 frames, eh.  I would be very interested in seeing a few more pictures of the observation hive.  Just to see the general makeup and configuration ... for build ideas for a deep winter activity.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Aroc

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2018, 08:42:45 pm »
http://www.bonterrabees.com/

These folks have quite a few to choose from. You can purchase them already built or you can purchase a plan book and make one yourself. 

 If you choose the plan option a word of warning, the directions are a little screwy at first. But if I can do it anyone can.
You are what you think.

Offline beepro

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Re: Promoting brood during winter
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2018, 03:58:46 pm »
Your hive is in good shape for now, Aroc.

This is what I forgot to do last winter.  I forgot to give the hives extra moisture when added the
supplement heat source.  It was too dry and hot inside.  Without a balance inside the dwindling hive  no new bees can emerge through out
the winter months.   No new bees replacement will be a dead hive.  My bad!   Now I know.