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Author Topic: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)  (Read 6351 times)

Offline 2Sox

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When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« on: October 27, 2018, 05:21:06 pm »
I've read many people say that it's advisable to stop feeding as soon as the bees stop taking it. 

But I recently read an excerpt from Michael Bush's online work that if you follow that reasoning, the bees may pack so much syrup in that they may not leave enough room for themselves to cluster during the cold winter months.

Here is the link:   http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm#moldysyrup

Scroll down to "Third, How much do you feed?"

I haven't had to feed sugar in ten years because I use cutout honey when necessary.  And I always have leftover! I fed all my remaining cutout honey to my six hives - about 50 lbs.  And I just finished feeding over 200 lbs more of sugar because they were so light.  I'm in NYC and we've had more overcast and rainy days here than I can remember.  Fall flow thus far has been terrible.  They finally slowed to a crawl taking up the syrup.

But the question of my post remains: When would YOU stop feeding?  When the hives weigh enough as Michael Bush says, or when they stop taking it?  Really interested in knowing your opinions on this.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline cao

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2018, 06:20:37 pm »
When would YOU stop feeding?  When the hives weigh enough as Michael Bush says, or when they stop taking it?  Really interested in knowing your opinions on this.
I go by when the hive weighs enough, there's no need to feed anymore.  I try not to feed at all but, with some late splits that were slow to build up, it always seems there are a few that needs feeding.  I'm to the point now with the below normal temps around here that it willl be sugar bricks on top of the rest that are light.


Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2018, 10:47:15 pm »
Go by weight of the hive.  Know the weight that is needed for sufficient stores for your area.  Ask the other beekeepers around you to get that target number. Weigh the hive periodically and Feed to that weight by mid-October then stop.
Do not count how much you have fed. Count down how much more you need to feed to get to the target weight.  Once the hive is within 5% of target taper off the feed.  Stop.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2018, 01:29:58 am »
Thanks, guys.  Looking forward to the feedback of others too.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2018, 04:03:48 am »
A sidebar:   If you have a hive that is light but that hive is not taking down the feed, it usually means something is wrong.  Weather, Disease, pest, or queen issue.  Go in to inspect.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2018, 04:05:52 am »
they need to have empty cells to custer, or they are dead.
so MB?s numbers should be good.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2018, 01:00:48 pm »
Blackforest,

What is MB?s ??
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline TheHoneyPump

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When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2018, 01:51:00 pm »
Blackforest,

What is MB?s ??

Likely means Micheal Bush.  MB. As you have referred to an article on his website.

When it comes to winter stores, the need varies by climate.  Some areas need more than others.  A mild climate that has some winter forage will need much less than an area that has blizzards and -20 temperatures.   So do not use MBs numbers unless his area winter is same or comparable to yours.   That is why I said ask around your local club to get that target number ... and only use the number given by that one person in the club that does not lose bees every winter ;)
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2018, 02:05:37 pm »
Blackforest,

What is MB?s ??

MB is Michael Bush.

Blessings

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2018, 03:21:40 pm »
Blackforest,

What is MB?s ??

Michael Bush.
But, as THP (TheHoneyPump) suggested, make sure to put in enough feed for YOUR locale.

Offline beepro

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2018, 04:10:06 pm »
I say feed them to weight.  In my mild winter bee environment I don't have to keep all the syrup in the
hive.  I just collect the empty drawn comb to store for the Spring hive expansion.  If the syrup is not cap then
the hives will have a high moisture over this winter.  We are opposite of yours with no rains so far.  The Autumn flow is
slow but beginning to pick up as more late flowers begin to open.   Going to be dryer than usual this season into the next. Somehow the
west coast and east coast weather got reversed this year.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 04:21:43 pm by beepro »

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2018, 05:11:17 pm »
I think you need a target weight.  Best to have that tied to the size of the cluster.  Feed to the weight you decided on.  Or feed to the number of frames of stores per frames of bees.  This will depend on climate also, of course.  So in a location where it's possible to feed all winter it would be different than a place where humidity is an issue and the syrup doesn't get warm enough.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Offline Acebird

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2018, 08:36:08 am »
I haven't had to feed sugar in ten years because I use cutout honey when necessary.

Not the best idea for disease prevention or poison.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2018, 05:12:29 pm »
I haven't had to feed sugar in ten years because I use cutout honey when necessary.

Not the best idea for disease prevention or poison.

Good point. However, all my colonies come from swarms or cutouts. I advertise on the Internet and subcontract for several pest management companies.  Very seldom do I buy packages.  I buy queens when necessary.  I put all the cutout honey in my upright freezer to take care there is no moth issue. I seem to be doing okay.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2018, 12:46:57 am »
I haven't had to feed sugar in ten years because I use cutout honey when necessary.

Not the best idea for disease prevention or poison.

Good point. However, all my colonies come from swarms or cutouts. I advertise on the Internet and subcontract for several pest management companies.  Very seldom do I buy packages.  I buy queens when necessary.  I put all the cutout honey in my upright freezer to take care there is no moth issue. I seem to be doing okay.

Mr 2Sox, does the freezer also kill any possiable varoa that might be in the cutout comb and honey? 
Thanks, Phillip
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Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2018, 04:28:23 am »
I haven't had to feed sugar in ten years because I use cutout honey when necessary.

Not the best idea for disease prevention or poison.

Good point. However, all my colonies come from swarms or cutouts. I advertise on the Internet and subcontract for several pest management companies.  Very seldom do I buy packages.  I buy queens when necessary.  I put all the cutout honey in my upright freezer to take care there is no moth issue. I seem to be doing okay.

Mr 2Sox, does the freezer also kill any possiable varoa that might be in the cutout comb and honey? 
Thanks, Phillip

and the viruses?

Offline Acebird

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2018, 08:31:13 am »
I put all the cutout honey in my upright freezer to take care there is no moth issue. I seem to be doing okay.
The freezer does not kill the bacteria and viruses.  You could be priming a bomb in your apiary and if you sell off hives that might be an issue too.  If you only feed the cut out honey back to the cut out hive and keep it separate from other hives the risk is much less.  You could also consume the cut out honey and let the hive have what they forage on.  Then the only risk is poison.  Most non beekeepers will poison before they call a beekeeper.
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Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2018, 01:11:42 pm »
I put all the cutout honey in my upright freezer to take care there is no moth issue. I seem to be doing okay.
The freezer does not kill the bacteria and viruses.  You could be priming a bomb in your apiary and if you sell off hives that might be an issue too.  If you only feed the cut out honey back to the cut out hive and keep it separate from other hives the risk is much less.  You could also consume the cut out honey and let the hive have what they forage on.  Then the only risk is poison.  Most non beekeepers will poison before they call a beekeeper.

Yes, I'm well aware of that. As I indicated, the freezing is only for the wax moths. (I treat with MAQs 2 or 3x a year.  Planning OAV next spring for the first time.)  But this is the S.O.P. for my operation and always has been since I got my rhythm in beekeeping going. Always had Nosema when my operation was upstate.  Never had it since I moved down here to the city.  Haven't a clue why.  I had all four of my colonies come out of winter last year doing just fine.  Never before had 100% survival rate for a winter.  Probably just luck.

The biggest problem I have here is the mosquito spraying the city does each summer. I screen in my bees until midday the next day and cover them with tarps the night of the spraying.

And I couldn't in good conscience consume or provide cutout honey for sale - unless it's absolutely pristine. And that doesn't happen often, if you are familiar with cutouts.  Mice feces and crushed bees are hard to avoid.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2018, 03:20:51 pm »
I haven't had to feed sugar in ten years because I use cutout honey when necessary.

Mr 2Sox, does the freezer also kill any possiable varoa that might be in the cutout comb and honey? 
Thanks, Phillip
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2018, 11:52:24 pm »
Freezing will kill the varroa, all stages.
Jim
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2018, 12:04:21 am »
Freezing will kill the varroa, all stages.
Jim

Thanks Jim, I thought so. Freezing the frames will kill wax worms, varroa, and Small Hive Beetles as well?  What about steam set up for killing virus?  The reason I ask, I once watched a video where a fellow shot steam throughout the boxes of excess frames and combs and suggested that this would sterilize the equipment as well as melt the wax.  Do you know of this type process and the facts of the benefits thereof?
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2018, 12:12:35 am »
Freezing will kill the varroa, all stages.
Jim

Agreed.  And all crawling and flying things.
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Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2018, 04:47:46 am »
Freezing will kill the varroa, all stages.
Jim

Thanks Jim, I thought so. Freezing the frames will kill wax worms, varroa, and Small Hive Beetles as well?  What about steam set up for killing virus?  The reason I ask, I once watched a video where a fellow shot steam throughout the boxes of excess frames and combs and suggested that this would sterilize the equipment as well as melt the wax.  Do you know of this type process and the facts of the benefits thereof?

it`s a common practice for melting comb to get at the wax. For killing of foulbrood-spores one has to get to higher temps and bottle things up to get higher pressure. I don`t know the exact temps and durations. My wax-melter can do this pressuring-up, but I never used it. The guys making our foundation out of our wax keep it simmering for another 3 hours or so before making the foundation out of it. I guess that is alright.
I don`t sterilize equipment or frames either. But i don`t live in an area with a foul-brood-problem, so.....

just shooting hot steam through combs without melitng them is just making them wet.

Offline Acebird

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2018, 08:07:28 am »
The freezer pretty much kills every critter you can see which is why I left my wet supers outside all winter.
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Offline robirot

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2018, 08:36:24 am »
Feed to weicht. If you keep feeding AS long as they take it, you can easly overfeed them until all cells are filled.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2018, 02:28:55 pm »
Curious:

How much vinegar would you add to about 4.5 gallons of syrup?
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2018, 03:10:35 pm »
2Sox;  If you are thinking vinegar to invert the sucrose syrup, the bees automatically do that as they place the syrup in the cells of the comb.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2018, 03:22:46 pm »
2Sox;  If you are thinking vinegar to invert the sucrose syrup, the bees automatically do that as they place the syrup in the cells of the comb.

Interesting.  It was my understanding that this would help bring the sugar close to the acid PH of honey; something bees could NOT do. And for this reason - and others - it is accepted that sugar really is not very good for bees, except as a last resort.  We know that commercial operators approach this very differently.

I'd be grateful if you could give me the source of this information that you give.  Thanks.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2018, 04:41:59 pm »
2Sox;  Google invertase in honey bees, look at the videos on youtube on feeding honey bees (the ones produced by known bee researchers, not those by first year beekeepers), read the ABC & XYZ of beekeeping and the Hive and the Honey Bee, and see if you can find USDA publications on the feeding of honey bees, or the publications by Doug Somerville, or Haydak, or Moeller, or Johansson.  Find Leslie Bailey or Brenda Ball and read their study on what food is best for wintering honey bees.

Be sure to keep your eyes open for anything that says sugar syrup must be inverted for feeding bees, or that the ph must be changed. 

Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2018, 06:25:53 pm »
2Sox;  Google invertase in honey bees, look at the videos on youtube on feeding honey bees (the ones produced by known bee researchers, not those by first year beekeepers), read the ABC & XYZ of beekeeping and the Hive and the Honey Bee, and see if you can find USDA publications on the feeding of honey bees, or the publications by Doug Somerville, or Haydak, or Moeller, or Johansson.  Find Leslie Bailey or Brenda Ball and read their study on what food is best for wintering honey bees.

Be sure to keep your eyes open for anything that says sugar syrup must be inverted for feeding bees, or that the ph must be changed.

Thank you for these sources, AR.  I already began my research and this should help even more. My initial discovery has been that adding vinegar is actually harmful.  This increases the production of Hydroxymethylfurfural (HMF) in the sugar syrup.  High HMF equals high bee mortality, according to this article.  Makes me wonder adding vinegar, citric acid, lemon juice is so common.

https://honeybeesuite.com/hydroxymethylfurfural-in-sugar-syrup/

Do you have any information that corroborates this?

"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2018, 08:01:44 pm »
Mr. Sox, good evening Sir.  HMF to my knowledge is only created at temperatures above 234F, which happens to be the boiling point of sugar syrup.  HMF simply stated is burnt syrup.

Let me explain the process in simple English of sugar syrup and honey bees digestion.

First forgive me if I make this to simple, for all I know Mr. Sox, you could be a nuclear scientist and laugh at my explanation.  Second, if you are a nuclear scientist, excuse my attempt to learn a learnth.( is that a real word?)

If we had a large enough magnifying glass we would see sugar syrup as bits of water mixed with bits of sugar.  We would see the bits of sugar are much larger than the tiny bits of water.  In fact the sugar bits are so large they cannot pass into the honeybees bloodstream.  So honeybees must reduce these huge bits of sugar so they are small enough to enter the bees bloodstream.  The process is called inverting the sugar.  Inverting sugar, reduces the size of the single pieces sugar to a smaller size
so the sugar can enter the bloodstream.

The process was taught to me in detail using Latin, science language.  Using Latin is a means of complicating as much as possible the simplest issues which creates pleasure within professors trying as much as possible to stress students.  Humor emphasized.
Blessings

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2018, 08:06:18 pm »
Van,
Thanks for that detailed explanation.
Jim
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Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2018, 11:05:12 pm »
Mr. Sox, good evening Sir.  HMF to my knowledge is only created at temperatures above 234F, which happens to be the boiling point of sugar syrup.  HMF simply stated is burnt syrup.

Let me explain the process in simple English of sugar syrup and honey bees digestion.

First forgive me if I make this to simple, for all I know Mr. Sox, you could be a nuclear scientist and laugh at my explanation.  Second, if you are a nuclear scientist, excuse my attempt to learn a learnth.( is that a real word?)

If we had a large enough magnifying glass we would see sugar syrup as bits of water mixed with bits of sugar.  We would see the bits of sugar are much larger than the tiny bits of water.  In fact the sugar bits are so large they cannot pass into the honeybees bloodstream.  So honeybees must reduce these huge bits of sugar so they are small enough to enter the bees bloodstream.  The process is called inverting the sugar.  Inverting sugar, reduces the size of the single pieces sugar to a smaller size
so the sugar can enter the bloodstream.

The process was taught to me in detail using Latin, science language.  Using Latin is a means of complicating as much as possible the simplest issues which creates pleasure within professors trying as much as possible to stress students.  Humor emphasized.
Blessings

Van,
This is great!  And your simplification is extremely useful.  I thank you for taking the time to explain and for your good humor in doing so.  As a retired teacher of 30 years I always found the KISS rule to be the gold standard.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline robirot

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2018, 03:51:02 am »
No vinegar needed. Straight sugar in Walter is all you need.

Bringing the PH with some Acid close to nectar/honey won't hurt the bees, but if you boil it together with acid you start producing hmf.

Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2018, 06:15:27 am »
2Sox;  When you search for information about honey bees you will need to remember that some findings reported are based on only one study.  It is best if you can find studies that have been repeated and the same conclusion reached.  Studies are only as good as the people that designed and carried out the study.

Information about the honey bee is changing rapidly as better test methods are put into use, so remember that what is chisled in stone today is proven to be incorrect tomorrow.  It is best to not put much faith in what you read on the net, wait until you have had a chance to try techniques for yourself before you really believe what the person recommending them has said.  All beekeeping is local, what applies here in north Arkansas may not apply in your area.

Be a hands-on beekeeper, you don't really learn about bees without working with the bees.  Don't worry about making mistakes, that is how you will learn your best lessons.  I have kept bees for over 40 years, and I still make mistakes.

Remember, stay skeptical about what you read on bee forums.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2018, 10:31:26 am »

  It is best to not put much faith in what you read on the net, wait until you have had a chance to try techniques for yourself before you really believe what the person recommending them has said.  All beekeeping is local, what applies here in north Arkansas may not apply in your area.

Be a hands-on beekeeper, you don't really learn about bees without working with the bees.  Don't worry about making mistakes, that is how you will learn your best lessons.  I have kept bees for over 40 years, and I still make mistakes.

Remember, stay skeptical about what you read on bee forums.

Very good advice to us all. Sounds like the advice I had often given to my students over the years, "Always be skeptical. Don't believe a thing I say or what you read until you find it true for yourself. Always, always question."

Reminds me of that great line of Groucho Marx: "Are you going to believe me or your lying eyes?"  Too much believing without questioning going on out there today, in my opinion.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2018, 10:33:20 am »
No vinegar needed. Straight sugar in Walter is all you need.

Bringing the PH with some Acid close to nectar/honey won't hurt the bees, but if you boil it together with acid you start producing hmf.

This distinction is important. This was NOT mentioned in the link I provided.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline Beepah

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2018, 07:18:10 am »
Won't consumption free-up space?
Thanks,
(first year beekeeper)

Offline robirot

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2018, 07:25:41 am »
Won't consumption free-up space?
Thanks,
(first year beekeeper)
Yes, but consumption is slow.