Feeding Pollen Substitute in Late Season

[Ben Framed]

I have questions. I live in North Mississippi. Hive beetles have been a nuisance for me in my first year of beekeeping and I even lost a good hive to them. Thanks to some of the members here and some more kind folks, I have learned to get them under control! Here's my question;  Since it has frosted here, will it be ok to place small pollen patties on the top frames, or is it still to early to chance it? Should I just continue to feed in the outside pollen feeder until later in the fall, and after the bees have quit flying regularly, and the true winter has hit?  Would that be a better time to  feed the patties? I have made splits and Im sure that a little extra pollen will be beneficial to them when all shuts down for the true winter. I am thinking when the real cold hits, the extra  protein might be needed? When do the hive beetles usually settle down and quit flying and attempting to invade?
Thanks, Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"

[iddee]

The beetles stay in the hive all winter.
You can feed pollen sub as long as you remove the remains and replace with fresh every 72 hours. Feed only what they can consume in that period of time.

[BeeMaster2]

Phillip,
Once the weather chills down, the queen should stop laying. Then the bees will not need pollen until they start building back up. Here that is December 22, winter solstice. If there is no maple pollen coming in, then you would want to add pollen.
Jim

[sc-bee]

The beetles stay in the hive all winter.
You can feed pollen sub as long as you remove the remains and replace with fresh every 72 hours. Feed only what they can consume in that period of time.

So will they still lay and hatch in cooler weather with the temps dropping? I know they won't pupate in the soil in the cooler weather.

[Dallasbeek]

Honest question:  i thought bees only used bee bread/pollen substitute to feed brood.  Am I mistaken?  If that is so, then what is accomplised by feeding pollen substitute when the queen is not laying?

[blackforest beekeeper]

as far as I know some guys up north give it to nourish the winter-bees (before winter)

In Germany, feeding substitute is a pretty much unknown.

[Ben Framed]

Honest question:  i thought bees only used bee bread/pollen substitute to feed brood.  Am I mistaken?  If that is so, then what is accomplised by feeding pollen substitute when the queen is not laying?

I can't remember if it was Joe May, Don, Canadian bee keeper, David at Barnyard bees, devan raven, Richard Noel or someone else told me that they need a certain amount of pollen through the winter .  I wish I could remember and quote, or at least I would have written it down, but ot was one of more of the heavy hitters.

[paus]

I have been told by a Master Beek that rule of thumb 2 frames bee bread and 6 frames of honey. I am going to sit back and learn.

[Dallasbeek]

Okay, but I thought the bee bread was there to feed brood in late winter/early spring when the queen started building up the hive (laying) and no new pollen was coming in.  I guess I need to go back and study some more about the basic operation of the hive.

[BeeMaster2]

When the bees are broodless, they can survive all winter with honey only. They store up pollen in the fall in preparation for the spring build up that occurs before they are able to go out and get it.
Jim

[iddee]

""So will they still lay and hatch in cooler weather with the temps dropping? I know they won't pupate in the soil in the cooler weather.""

Probably not, but they will start as soon as the weather warms enough to activate them.

Adult bees consume pollen to make royal jelly and use it to make bee bread. They use very little, if any, for their own anatomy.

[Dallasbeek]

Jim, Iddee, thanks for making that clear.  So back to my point (I think), which is why are we discussing feeding pollen substitute when the hive is broodless and no pollen is coming in?

[Ben Framed]

If beetles lay when the weather is warm enough to activate them, how does this coincide with the period when the queen bees continue laying in late fall, late winter and early spring?  Do the hive beetles and queen generally have the same time schedule? I am guessing not?  When the ground freezes in my area in December, some years even in November wouldn't it be fruitless for the beetles to lay when the larva has no chance to burrow in the ground? Will the queen bee lay well after the beetles will stop laying? I have been told that bees lay until late fall. Bees start laying well before the winter is over in February in my area of Mississippi?  If this is  correct, then ground will still be frozen in my area some years until March, off and on, If this is correct then the beetles will do what? Lay and slime the hive even before the bees have a chance to get going in the spring then die out themselves because they can not burrow? Slime the hive late fall, or, do the beetles wait until the ground is the right tempature to begin laying? Either way, the bees will indeed need a certain amount of pollen going into late fall and winter and as early as February, since I have been told the queen will start laying then, no natural pollen willl be avaible until late March and early April? So wouldn't it be good to make sure the bees have a good amount of pollen going into winter in order to ensure they have enough for their purposes?   Thanks Phillip Hall

[Ben Framed]

If beetles lay when the weather is warm enough to activate them, how does this coincide with the period when the queen bees continue laying in late fall, late winter and early spring?  Do the hive beetles and queen generally have the same time schedule? I am guessing not?  When the ground freezes in my area in December, some years even in November wouldn't it be fruitless for the beetles to lay when the larva has no chance to burrow in the ground? Will the queen bee lay well after the beetles will stop laying? I have been told that bees lay until late fall. Bees start laying well before the winter is over in February in my area of Mississippi?  If this is  correct, then ground will still be frozen in my area some years until March, off and on, If this is correct then the beetles will do what? Lay and slime the hive even before the bees have a chance to get going in the spring then die out themselves because they can not burrow? Slime the hive late fall, or, do the beetles wait until the ground is the right tempature to begin laying? Either way, the bees will indeed need a certain amount of pollen going into late fall and winter and as early as February, since I have been told the queen will start laying then, no natural pollen willl be avaible until late March and early April? So wouldn't it be good to make sure the bees have a good amount of pollen going into winter in order to ensure they have enough for their purposes? If no pollen otnthe proper amount of pollen , what good would it do for the queen to start laying in February if no pollen for royal jelly? And if she is not  adequately supplied with enough no new bees for a much longer time period . The bees that have already endured a winter will have to survive even longer without fresh  enforcement?  How long will the hive survive without the fresh bees? Thanks Phillip Hall

[Hops Brewster]

There are very few flowers still in bloom, but a few bees are still bringing in pollen.   Why, at this late season?
My hives have all reduced population, but so far have not completely stopped laying, so fresh bee bread is still needed, or they are still laying up to have it on hand when buildup begins.

Even though I see pollen going into the hives, I won't be giving any supplemental pollen sub until late winter for buildup.  Right now I'm only feeding syrup to help ensure adequate winter stores.

[blackforest beekeeper]

Jim, Iddee, thanks for making that clear.  So back to my point (I think), which is why are we discussing feeding pollen substitute when the hive is broodless and no pollen is coming in?

I don`t know about your places. In Germany, though there are winters, almost all year long the bees can gather pollen, IF they can fly. So I have seen bees bringing in Pollen on a mild christmas eve, e.g. In winter, hazelnut is "blooming", then there is alder, with the willows early spring has come and first nectar-flow might set in for build-up. I think in the BlackForest this year they didn`t get any of it, cause it was too cold to fly. Also in winter hazelnut completely went past them as it was too cold during all the blooming time.

[Ben Framed]

@ hops   My first year beekeeping. Did cut out in April good bees hard workers.   A critter knocked hive over.  This was a cut out. No reinforced combs. Queen destroyed. Salvaged what was possible. Made a decision.  Ordered four queens.  Used nuc boxes. All four made a tremendous come back though it was late. All four are strong hives, in comb and bees. Weak  on pollen.  We have had our first frost. No natural pollen coming in here. The reason this late for feeding pollen, would like for  hives  to be a strong as possible Going into winter. No pollen, no new bees. I want the queen laying into the season or what's left of it,  as long as possible. Thanks, Phillip

[2Sox]

Phillip,
Once the weather chills down, the queen should stop laying. Then the bees will not need pollen until they start building back up. 
Jim

I agree.  It's my understanding that pollen sub only encourages queen laying and brood rearing.  Why would you want that going into winter?  When I feed pollen sub in spring and summer, my hive populations explode.  I've had packages swarm the first season as a result.

I have a question about winter patties and I'll do a separate post on that.

[Ben Framed]

Honest question:  i thought bees only used bee bread/pollen substitute to feed brood.  Am I mistaken?  If that is so, then what is accomplised by feeding pollen substitute when the queen is not laying?

My hives or not broodless, And I would like for the queen to lay long as possible. No pollen no new bees? More explanation in previous post to hops. Thanks Philip PS. Working and can't really go into depth as would like talk to you guys later.

[2Sox]

@ hops   My first year beekeeping. Did cut out in April good bees hard workers.   A critter knocked hive over.  This was a cut out. No reinforced combs. Queen destroyed. Salvaged what was possible. Made a decision.  Ordered four queens.  Used nuc boxes. All four made a tremendous come back though it was late. All four are strong hives, in comb and bees. Weak  on pollen.  We have had our first frost. No natural pollen coming in here. The reason this late for feeding pollen, would like for  hives  to be a strong as possible Going into winter. No pollen, no new bees. I want the queen laying into the season or what's left of it,  as long as possible. Thanks, Phillip

With these conditions you describe, I'd think it would be a good idea to feed pollen substitute.