Unsure What's Going On In This Hive

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Ben, Jim, thank you, about 650-700 pounds of tasty Bull elk, 5X5, surprisingly tender.

Member, so glad to hear the good news, very glad indeed.
Blessings

[TheHoneyPump]

That is GREAT news 15thmember! Sounds like a really positive outcome. Leave the MAQS in for another week then toss them or even use them in your hive smoker.
 
Does the hive have a slide out bottom board to view amount of mite drop since putting in the strips?  Just wondering if you have noticed any more, less, or same mite on the board from now to the pre-treatment.

So glad to hear the second hive is looking to be in good condition.

Oh duh, sorry, I forgot to mention the bottom board drop. The count was 335, which is MUCH higher than I?ve seen in this hive all year.

Ok good. Very good.
Btw - your observations of a good population in the hive ... you have probably found and seen where a good portion of the absconded hive bees eventually went to.
I would be strongly tempted, and may suggest, a second round of the MAQS next week right about the time and just before those new eggs have developed to the point of being capped.  That will hit whatever mites are left just before they get to sneak in under the pupae. Clean the board just before so you can see the extent of the effect of the second round.  Which hopefully will trend to be much fewer.  Afterward you can then be fully comforted that the bees have had all the help they possibly could be given and they should be good through to the spring.

Beeing observant. Asking for input on the concerns your were seeing.  Great effort of taking action on the info given to promptly help the other hive as best you could. .
WELL DONE, BEEKEEPER!

[Ben Framed]

Ben, Jim, thank you, about 650-700 pounds of tasty Bull elk, 5X5, surprisingly tender.

Member, so glad to hear the good news, very glad indeed.
Blessings

What does elk taste like? Deer, beef, nothing else? 

[blackforest beekeeper]

That is GREAT news 15thmember! Sounds like a really positive outcome. Leave the MAQS in for another week then toss them or even use them in your hive smoker.
 
Does the hive have a slide out bottom board to view amount of mite drop since putting in the strips?  Just wondering if you have noticed any more, less, or same mite on the board from now to the pre-treatment.

So glad to hear the second hive is looking to be in good condition.

Oh duh, sorry, I forgot to mention the bottom board drop. The count was 335, which is MUCH higher than I?ve seen in this hive all year.

Per day? Or all in all during the treatment?

[TheHoneyPump]

I have taken some time to put together a brief slide-deck on this case. Thank you @the15thmember for sharing the hi-res versions of the pictures and co-editing the deck.

The intent of putting it together is to share a condensed and concise version of the information and the learnings so that everyone can have a better understanding of the signs and symptoms experienced with the hive. It is hoped that everyone can benefit at improving skills at diagnosing what is going on in the hives and what the bees need from us to help them along.

Folks you may view the slide-deck at this link. It may not exist indefinitely and the link may be broken if/when there are updates to the file.  I am not imposing any limitations or copyright type stuff on it, however I do reserve the right to unilaterally revise as see I fit.  Please freely share and discuss around your local bee clubs and peers.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NvP-olm7vwMxPVH-Oi1CNHH70Wq913ym/view?usp=sharing

I hope you find it useful.  ENJOY!

[The15thMember]

Per day? Or all in all during the treatment?

Oh no, not per day, over the course of the week of the treatment. 

I would be strongly tempted, and may suggest, a second round of the MAQS next week right about the time and just before those new eggs have developed to the point of being capped.  That will hit whatever mites are left just before they get to sneak in under the pupae. Clean the board just before so you can see the extent of the effect of the second round.  Which hopefully will trend to be much fewer.  Afterward you can then be fully comforted that the bees have had all the help they possibly could be given and they should be good through to the spring.

Beeing observant. Asking for input on the concerns your were seeing.  Great effort of taking action on the info given to promptly help the other hive as best you could. .
WELL DONE, BEEKEEPER!

I'm going to do a sugar roll next week to check what the mite situation looks like, and if it seems concerning, then I may do a second round.  My concern with doing another round of the MAQS is the health of the queen and the open brood.  Since I didn't see any open larva, I'm presuming that there was high mortality amongst that brood stage, and since I'm not sure when egg laying stops in my area, I'm thinking that it might be a good idea to let them get one or two more solid rounds of brood in.  I would also be concerned about the queen with that heavy of a treatment.  People seem to have issues with supersedure with the MAQS and I really wouldn't want to be in that boat again, like I just was with the deadout hive.   

[TheHoneyPump]

If there are still a lot of mites and you let them brood, there will continue to be a lot of mites.  Yes, good to do a sugar roll sample at least 3 days before the brood will be capped so you know what the load is and whether to treat again or not.  You know when the eggs were laid, the capping will be on day 8 from egg.  Do your sample roll on day 4 or 5 and let the results decide what to do.

With respect to the queen.  If you do need to do another treatment and you are worried about the queen.  That is quite simple.  Put her in a cage with 5 healthy workers and bring her into the house.  Feed them water and a drop of honey each day.  While she is safe, treat the hive.  The queen in cage is safe for at least 5 days.  Keep her in warm place with her bees and she will last up to 10 days.  The bees will die before the queen.  When the bees in the cage start dying off, you know you need to get her back to the hive that very day.  In one week after applying second treatment, check the hive for queen cells, destroy them, and reintroduce the queen.  It is a way to treat without loosing her. ;)

[The15thMember]

If there are still a lot of mites and you let them brood, there will continue to be a lot of mites.  Yes, good to do a sugar roll sample at least 3 days before the brood will be capped so you know what the load is and whether to treat again or not.  You know when the eggs were laid, the capping will be on day 8 from egg.  Do your sample roll on day 4 or 5 and let the results decide what to do.

With respect to the queen.  If you do need to do another treatment and you are worried about the queen.  That is quite simple.  Put her in a cage with 5 healthy workers and bring her into the house.  Feed them water and a drop of honey each day.  While she is safe, treat the hive.  The queen in cage is safe for at least 5 days.  Keep her in warm place with her bees and she will last up to 10 days.  The bees will die before the queen.  When the bees in the cage start dying off, you know you need to get her back to the hive that very day.  In one week after applying second treatment, check the hive for queen cells, destroy them, and reintroduce the queen.  It is a way to treat without loosing her. ;)

Alright, so I'll do a sugar roll on Monday or Tuesday to get some info on what I'm going to do.  I never thought of bringing the queen inside, that's totally a good idea!  I don't have a queen cage that could hold that many attendants comfortably, but I could always fudge something with some sort of dish and some hardware cloth.  Maybe a pint jar with some hardware cloth in the lid. 

I have taken some time to put together a brief slide-deck on this case. Thank you @the15thmember for sharing the hi-res versions of the pictures and co-editing the deck.

The intent of putting it together is to share a condensed and concise version of the information and the learnings so that everyone can have a better understanding of the signs and symptoms experienced with the hive. It is hoped that everyone can benefit at improving skills at diagnosing what is going on in the hives and what the bees need from us to help them along.

Folks you may view the slide-deck at this link. It may not exist indefinitely and the link may be broken if/when there are updates to the file.  I am not imposing any limitations or copyright type stuff on it, however I do reserve the right to unilaterally revise as see I fit.  Please freely share and discuss around your local bee clubs and peers.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NvP-olm7vwMxPVH-Oi1CNHH70Wq913ym/view?usp=sharing

I hope you find it useful.  ENJOY!

 
Like.      

[Ben Framed]

Very good artical Mr Claude, so well clarified that Evan a beginner such as myself can easily understand and learn! Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy life to help the bees as well as the beekeeper! We are blessed to have you here sir!!

Sincerely,
Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"

[The15thMember]

So I just had a development.  I went up to check on the bees and there are about 30-40 dead workers on the landing board.  I went and got my stethoscope and took a listen to the hive, and I definitely hear bees in there, but unfortunately I've never listened with the stethoscope before, so I can't get a gauge on how full the hive sounds or anything like that (I only learned about that trick a couple of days ago).  The only thing that is different since last inspection is I put a slatted rack and my moisture quilt on since it's gotten cold here recently.  2 of the bees on the landing board have deformed wings, and 1 appears to be an improperly developing pupa that was pulled.  With the exception of those 3 no others show any signs of anything unusual, some have their tongues out, most have their legs tucked in and their wings out.  They are fuzzy, normal colored, and intact.  The temp outside right now is about 45^oF, and it's cloudy and spritzing, so it's pretty nasty out.  Is it just more dead loss from the formic acid, and are they just leaving them at the entrance because it's cold and nasty and they don't want to fly right now?  Should I be concerned about this?     

[cao]

The temp outside right now is about 45^oF, and it's cloudy and spritzing, so it's pretty nasty out.  Is it just more dead loss from the formic acid, and are they just leaving them at the entrance because it's cold and nasty and they don't want to fly right now?  Should I be concerned about this?     

I don't know about the formic acid, but dead bees will accumulate on the landing board during the winter when it is too cold for the bees to be flying.  Depending on your weather and if you have the entrance reduced, they may even block the entrance entirely.  When it warms up after a long cold spell, I will go around my hives and scrape off the dead bees to open up the entrance.

[The15thMember]

I don't know about the formic acid, but dead bees will accumulate on the landing board during the winter when it is too cold for the bees to be flying.  Depending on your weather and if you have the entrance reduced, they may even block the entrance entirely.  When it warms up after a long cold spell, I will go around my hives and scrape off the dead bees to open up the entrance.

Thanks, cao. Today is the first day it?s been particularly cold here, so it?s probably just that. I?m going into my first winter so I?ve just never seen this before. I didn?t have a chance to check on them yesterday, so I?m not even sure the dead bees are all from today.

[blackforest beekeeper]

You might have an answer already, but anyway:
first, there will be many bees still dying.
now that its cold, they cant be disposed of - so you get to see them.
300 something mites for a treatment is nothing if the hive has had it really bad. It all depends on how many are left in the hive. and how badly the bees have been injured.
So you might see a lot more dead bees there when chilly, yet.
40 dead bees is not a whole lot, either.

[The15thMember]

So I did the sugar rolls today.  I did 3 rolls to be sure I had good data and none of them was a fluke or anything.  I rolled with 1 cup of bees and 2 Tbsp of sugar.  First roll I got 3 mites, the next time I got 1, and the last one I got 2.  According to the chart in the back of the Beekeeper's Handbook, that's an infestation of 1-2%.  So unless someone can convince me otherwise, I'm not going to do another round of the MAQS, as I don't think the hive needs it.  The MAQS that I applied last week I did leave in there, since there is still some juice left in them.  I'll take those strips out probably this weekend.       

[TheHoneyPump]

AWESOME!  Cleaned them up.
Only way your sample would be misrepresenting is if the new eggs/larvae are nearing capped and most of the mites have moved into the bottoms of the cells.  The formic should have still reached them in there before capping. Event still, at a count of 1 - 3 the bees will be ok.  1 - 3 is in the do nothing zone, do not treat zone. Let bees be bees.
Reads like you hit them with the MAQS right on time and kicked them right in the ...

Sample and check again in your springtime, just before they start brooding to buildup.  For me, that is April.  For you, may be as early as end of February.

[blackforest beekeeper]

Let me aks some things, as I have never used the sugar-roll-method:
how many bees do you sugar?
what are the numbers to decide on treating or not treating depending on time of year? or the numbers for the overall-mite-population calculated from the sugar-roll-results?

didn`t the count BEFORE show just about the same result?

on formic acid:
you described a sort of late-fall weather with rain and chilly. formic acid will not work under those circumstances.

[The15thMember]

AWESOME!  Cleaned them up.
Only way your sample would be misrepresenting is if the new eggs/larvae are nearing capped and most of the mites have moved into the bottoms of the cells.  The formic should have still reached them in there before capping. Event still, at a count of 1 - 3 the bees will be ok.  1 - 3 is in the do nothing zone, do not treat zone. Let bees be bees.
Reads like you hit them with the MAQS right on time and kicked them right in the ...

Sample and check again in your springtime, just before they start brooding to buildup.  For me, that is April.  For you, may be as early as end of February.

Absolutely I'll be sure to stay more on top of the mite situation from now on.  Oh, yeah, my bees will definitely have brood before April down here in the south!    

Let me aks some things, as I have never used the sugar-roll-method:
how many bees do you sugar?
what are the numbers to decide on treating or not treating depending on time of year? or the numbers for the overall-mite-population calculated from the sugar-roll-results?

didn`t the count BEFORE show just about the same result?

on formic acid:
you described a sort of late-fall weather with rain and chilly. formic acid will not work under those circumstances.

It has been cold here this week, but not the week that the treatment was first in.  The MAQS are only supposed to be a 1 week long treatment, and the temps have to be above 50^oF during the day according to the directions on the package, which it was for that week.  I'm just leaving it in for another week because there was still some acid left in the pads, and the instructions say you can leave it in until the bees remove it.   

As far as the sugar roll goes, personally what I do is I put about 1 cup of bees in a quart sized mason jar that has a mesh lid, and put 2 tablespoons of powdered sugar on top of them.  I then shake the jar to coat them well with sugar, and then I let them sit in the shade for 2 minutes to heat up.  Then I turn the jar upside down and shake as much sugar out as possible onto a paper plate, then I release the bees back into the hive, and count the mites on the plate, and any that were left in the bottom of the jar.  1/2 cup of bees = 300 bees, so from that you can calculate the percentage of mites to bees.  Did I post my sugar roll from before the other hive died?  I can't seem to find where it is, but if I did I had the numbers wrong.  I went back and looked in my notes to double check what it was before, and I did my math wrong.  Before the other hive died, I rolled 1 1/2 cups of bees from this hive (just happened to get too many in the jar that day) and I got 22 mites.  That's a little over 7 mites/300 bees which according to the chart in my book is a 5% infestation.  Or you could just calculate the percentage, which would come out to be about 2.4%, if my math is correct.  (I'm not sure what factors the chart in my book is adjusting for, so I'm not sure why the percentages are different.  I was just using the chart because it was convenient.)  Note that the first roll was done before the other hive died and spread the mites to this hive, so it went down from more than 7 mites/300 bees to 2-3 mites/300 bees.  Different people have different treatment thresholds, my book recommends treatment at 10% infestation, but that is based on the book's chart.  I've heard a lot of people say 5% as a treatment threshold.     

[TheHoneyPump]

Properly done, the sugar roll method essentially the same as an alcohol wash.
The media used is icing sugar. 
Prepare a jar with a screened lid.
Put 1/3-1/2 cup of bees sample in the jar with sugar. 
Shake vigorously for a few minutes.
Prepare a white pan with a thin layer of water.  Shake the sugar (and loose mites) through the screened lid into the pan of water.  Count the mites, divide by 3, multiply by 1.3 = mite load per 100 bees.
Return the Sugar coated bees to the hive.

The sugar roll sugar shake method is less effective at dislodging mites than the alcohol, yet is still a good indicator.  Sugar shake still kills bees but only about half of the sample.  Because it is less affective, is why I multiply the result by 1.3 to get a final number, trying to approximate what the alcohol wash would have given.

[The15thMember]

Sugar shack still kills B?s but only about half of the sample.   

Do the bees die after the fact or something?  Because I hardly ever have more than 1 or 2 dead bees in my rolls. 

[blackforest beekeeper]

Properly done, the sugar roll method essentially the same as an alcohol wash.
The media used is icing sugar. 
Prepare a jar with a screened lid.
Put 1/3 cup of bees sample in the jar with sugar. 
Shake vigorously for a few minutes.
Prepare a white pan with a thin layer of water.  Shake the sugar (and loose mites) through the screened lid into the pan of water.  Count the mites, divide by 3, multiply by 1.3 = mite load per 100 bees.
Return the Sugar coated bees to the hive.

The sugar roll sugar shake method is less effective at dislodging might than the alcohol, yet is still a good indicator.  Sugar shack still kills B?s but only about half of the sample.  Because it is less affective that?s why I multiply the result by 1.3 to try to give what the alcohol wash would have given.

 

I know the method. I just never needed it as I get along with looking at the drawer underneath the screen. (note: I don`t count them, well, I don=t count them ANY MORE).

I was interested in: How many bees?
In Germany, we use 500 bees. So mite count seems to be different as to severity.
What are the thresholds for treatment? As this is different for climates over the run  of the year.