Unsure What's Going On In This Hive

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

N-[[(2>4-dimethylphcnyl)imino]methyl]-N-methyImethammidamidc

Member:?above is the chemical name of apivar.  Just thought you should know, more later.
Blessings

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Direct effect of acaricides on pathogen loads and gene expression levels in honey bees Apis mellifera.

Article on apivar and other miticides from PubMed, {library of Congress}not google.  In short the article raises concerns on apivar.

HoneyPumb has put forth tremendous and generous efforts of time.  His time is to be appreciated.  However my only concern is the apivar, yes the apivar is simple as pointed out and approved for treatment of varroa by all states, even California but new research raises concerns.  HoneyPump I would especially appreciate your reading and review of the above article.  There are several articles I must dive into to see the latest effects of apivar as well as other miticides.

Now I need more time to study:  the above article raises concerns of whole hive detrimental effects.

For the record, I have both treated and treatment free hives.  More later.
Blessings

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Randy Oliver{Most tree fruit growers will remember amitraz as Mitac which was used heavily for pear psylla control in the past. This product was routinely used for synergizing organophosphate and pyrethroid insecticides in crops like cotton where key pests had developed resistance, because it shut down the enzymes insects used to detoxify pesticides.}

Amitraz is the same as apivar.  In short the above stated apivar blocks an insects ability to resist insecticides.  In one sentence as simple as I can state the info.

So Ms. Member, Bless you for your concern of your honeybees.  I am anxious to see what gives when you inspect tomorrow.

Off subject: Ms. Member; I sincerely hope the hurricane had little effect on you and family, I just looked at your location or I would have expressed concerns earlier.
Blessings

[ed/La.]

8 frames medium is not a lot of bees for this time of year. it is basically a nuc. 4 frames of brood? Full frames? If full that would equal 10 or 12 frames of bees and you would be OK  if they survive and not weak from mites. With a small entrance you describe robbing is unlikely until they already abscond. You described a weak hive or decent nuc.Once robbing starts weak hives leave or once they abscond robbing starts.  My guess is they absconded because of high varoa count then robbing started. There will probably not be any queens in there. In week or so wax moths will slime out what is left.I think you already lost this hive. I hope for the best for your bees but it doesn't sound good. Keep us updated. I hope I am wrong. Good luck

[The15thMember]

N-[[(2>4-dimethylphcnyl)imino]methyl]-N-methyImethammidamidc

Member:?above is the chemical name of apivar.  Just thought you should know, more later.
Blessings

That is so awesome.  I am such a nerd.   
 

Randy Oliver{Most tree fruit growers will remember amitraz as Mitac which was used heavily for pear psylla control in the past. This product was routinely used for synergizing organophosphate and pyrethroid insecticides in crops like cotton where key pests had developed resistance, because it shut down the enzymes insects used to detoxify pesticides.}

Amitraz is the same as apivar.  In short the above stated apivar blocks an insects ability to resist insecticides.  In one sentence as simple as I can state the info.

So Ms. Member, Bless you for your concern of your honeybees.  I am anxious to see what gives when you inspect tomorrow.

Off subject: Ms. Member; I sincerely hope the hurricane had little effect on you and family, I just looked at your location or I would have expressed concerns earlier.
Blessings

Seriously, I am such a nerd.  You want to know how much of a nerd I am?  I actually started giggling and jumping up and down with excitement because for the first time in my life, in a conversation that was not wholly academic, someone said something sciency and I didn't understand the majority of the words contained in the sentence.  I just love learning!  That's how much of a nerd I am. 

Thanks for doing this research for me, Van.  And don't worry, I'm going to take my time and do my research and figure out what route I want to go as far as the treatment goes.  So please keep the information coming, it's fantastic. 

Also don't worry about us with the hurricanes, we were very lucky.  Only had a little sprinkling from Florence, and just some overnight rain from Michael.   

8 frames medium is not a lot of bees for this time of year. it is basically a nuc. 4 frames of brood? Full frames? If full that would equal 10 or 12 frames of bees and you would be OK  if they survive and not weak from mites. With a small entrance you describe robbing is unlikely until they already abscond. You described a weak hive or decent nuc.Once robbing starts weak hives leave or once they abscond robbing starts.  My guess is they absconded because of high varoa count then robbing started. There will probably not be any queens in there. In week or so wax moths will slime out what is left.I think you already lost this hive. I hope for the best for your bees but it doesn't sound good. Keep us updated. I hope I am wrong. Good luck

I am fully prepared to go in there tomorrow and find a disaster.  I really may have witnessed an absconding today, and who knows if my robbing precautions did any good.  We're going in the hive first thing tomorrow ("we" being me and my sister, who helps me out up at the hives) so you guys can expect to hear from me sometime tomorrow afternoon.  I hope you're wrong too, ed/La.  Haha.      

[The15thMember]

Well, I?m a bit earlier than I anticipated, which as you can imagine is not good news. I apparently did witness absconding yesterday because the hive is completely empty this morning. We found one queen on the bottom board, dead but her retinue was still around her.  Other than them, nobody home.  I?ll get you guys some pictures of the hive. I?m going to check the cells for varroa and EFB still, and I?ll pull out the brood that was left and see what the mite count looks like. Is there anything else I should look for during the postmortem?  Also there were 3 frames of honey left that are pretty decent looking, partially capped and with minimal damage from robbing or moths. Should I give the honey to my other hive or can I keep it for myself? 

[TheHoneyPump]

Well, I?m a bit earlier than I anticipated, which as you can imagine is not good news. I apparently did witness absconding yesterday because the hive is completely empty this morning. We found one queen on the bottom board, dead but her retinue was still around her.  Other than them, nobody home.  I?ll get you guys some pictures of the hive. I?m going to check the cells for varroa and EFB still, and I?ll pull out the brood that was left and see what the mite count looks like. Is there anything else I should look for during the postmortem?  Also there were 3 frames of honey left that are pretty decent looking, partially capped and with minimal damage from robbing or moths. Should I give the honey to my other hive or can I keep it for myself?

So sorry to hear this.  Though not unexpected, right?
We are all very interested in seeing pictures of the brood combs.  If you can take pictures at different angles of the cells, that helps.
Do not be tempted to put any of that brood into any of your other hives!  Inspect it, diagnose it, then freeze it for 24 hours.
The honey frames, do not use them in the other hives until after the post mortem diagnosis is complete.  Reason is depending on what the cause was, the diagnosis, it may be in the honey.  If the cause is settled on mites, go ahead and use the honey to bolster the stores of the other hives.  If the cause is any brood disease whatsoever, the honey frames need to be kept away from the other hives by extracting them and potentially also melting them down, depending on what it is.

[ed/La.]

If night was not to cold and brood not overloaded with mites you can give brood to other hives. The honey can be given to other hives if you think they need it or save to give in early spring after freezing  to kill any pest eggs. You also could keep for yourself and feed them syrup when they need it. I would guess goldenrod is blooming there now. If honey looks dark it could be goldenrod honey and many people do not care for it.

[The15thMember]

Alright, here come the pictures.  They're pretty high quality and I have to resize them, and I can only fit a couple per post, so it's going to take me a couple minutes to post them all.  First off we've got the dead queen and her retinue, with at least 2 bees that have a mite on them; some dead bees on the bottom board; some of the open pupa; and a varroa mite walking around on a frame. 

[TheHoneyPump]

If night was not to cold and brood not overloaded with mites you can give brood to other hives. The honey can be given to other hives if you think they need it or save to give in early spring after freezing  to kill any pest eggs. You also could keep for yourself and feed them syrup when they need it. I would guess goldenrod is blooming there now. If honey looks dark it could be goldenrod honey and many people do not care for it.

No!

First picture.  Mite on the back of bee at bottom left of the huddle and in the thorax crevice of the two bees above her.
Third picture.  Mite poop on the upper side of every cell.
Last picture.  Mite running around on capped brood and mite poop in every open cells.

Your hive was overwhelmed by mites.  They couldn't handle it anymore and left.  Freeze everything, scrapings, bottom board debris, everything.  Kill every bee in it, do not let them go anywhere. Clean up, do not give anything to the other hives.  Restock as a new hive, split from another, it in the spring.

Treat every other hive in this apiary yard for mites. Right now!  The bees that left are drifted into the other hives now.  And do not be softy touchy feely about it if you truly want any of the other hives to survive.  Treat aggressively.  ApiVar is 99% kill.

[The15thMember]

Here we have some more shots of comb, some of which I uncapped with the uncapping fork.  I circled two cells that were of particular interest to me, as they seemed to have multiple white mites in the bottom of varying sizes.  Are these the mites that are developing in the capped cells? 

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Yep, agree with HP.  Bottom pic, upper left show a lot of mite poop, white crystals adhered to the side walls close to the top of the cells.

Dang mites, a common issue to all beeks.  The difference is how we each deal with the mites.  Notice I have not stated how I deal with mites because I wish you to decide for yourself.

Good pics, Ms. Member.
Blessings

[TheHoneyPump]

Pictures 049 and 052.   Tiny pinholes in top of brood cap.  Another sign of mites.  This is exit hole from a mature mite that didn't want to wait for the pupae to come out or the pupae was dead so the mite got out and hitched a ride to the next hive in the yard.

[The15thMember]

Ooh, here's a really good shot of the multiple white ones in a cell.  Also here is a pupa with a lot of little brown bits on the bottom of it.  I saw a few that looked like this.  Any idea what that is? 

[The15thMember]

So based on all this, I had myself concluded that it was mites as well.  HoneyPump, don't worry, I will take a drastic step to address the other hive's mites.  In the wake of the abscond, there were wax moth caterpillars everywhere too, and all the open brood died last night in the cold.  There were absolutely no adult bees left in the hive, other than the few in the picture with the queen.  I took all the capped brood and uncapped it to check for mites, and get practice uncapping, and then I fed the brood to my sister's chickens.  Now my question is, if I freeze this hive's stores, why can't I give them to my other hive?  Won't freezing kill the mites?       

[TheHoneyPump]

After freezing sure.  However, you are going to need those frames of stores for when you rebuild and restock the hive with fresh healthy bees later.  If you do not have a way to store so that moths and other critters do not destroy it then sure, give it to another hive after been frozen stiff AND in a hive that you are promptly also treating.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

The brown bits on pupae to me, look to be just trash, bits of cocoon or whatever that stuck to dead pupae as you lifted it out of the cell.

[The15thMember]

The brown bits on pupae to me, look to be just trash, bits of cocoon or whatever that stuck to dead pupae as you lifted it out of the cell.

Thanks, Van.  I figured it was nothing major, but just wanted to make sure.
 

After freezing sure.  However, you are going to need those frames of stores for when you rebuild and restock the hive with fresh healthy bees later.  If you do not have a way to store so that moths and other critters do not destroy it then sure, give it to another hive after been frozen stiff AND in a hive that you are promptly also treating.

Oh, okay good.  What I was planning on doing, since I don't have a lot of storage, is to give the really nice honey and pollen frames to my other hive, and then store any nicely drawn blanks so I have some drawn comb on hand for a split next year, and melt down the poorly drawn ones. 

Now the other thing I want to mention is that I did leave some of the frames that had honey on them outside for the other bees to clean out.  When we started cleaning everything up, they found the boxes way faster than I anticipated, and I was fairly certain by that point it was mites and not something pathogenic or contagious, so I figured what's the harm it letting them clean out the frames.  Was that a mistake on my part?     

[TheHoneyPump]

Whatever mites were still hidden or walking around on those frames have now hitched a ride to a new home full of fresh meaty buzzy bees.

Also, mites vector viruses.  Such as those -old black bees- you mentioned at the outset of the thread.  Not old bees.  Sick bees.  Also some viral/pathogens do indeed reside in the comb, honey, and pollen.  Easily taken back to an otherwise healthy hive, infecting a new colony.  This is why open feeding and leaving equipment out to be robbed is discouraged.  We all do it.  Though not when the equipment has come from a dead out such as this.

Since you are planning to take immediate action to treat the other hives in the apiary, don't worry about it.  You treatment(s), assuming you choose the most proven treatment(s) that are expedient in their efficacy, then the potential impact to the other hives should at least be reduced.

[The15thMember]

Whatever mites were still hidden or walking around on those frames have now hitched a ride to a new home full of fresh meaty buzzy bees.

Also, mites vector viruses.  Such as those -old black bees- you mentioned at the outset of the thread.  Not old bees.  Sick bees.  Also some viral/pathogens do indeed reside in the comb, honey, and pollen.  Easily taken back to an otherwise healthy hive, infecting a new colony.  This is why open feeding and leaving equipment out to be robbed is discouraged.  We all do it.  Though not when the equipment has come from a dead out such as this.

Since you are planning to take immediate action to treat the other hives in the apiary, don't worry about it.  You treatment(s), assuming you choose the most proven treatment(s) that are expedient in their efficacy, then the potential impact to the other hives should at least be reduced.

Yeah, not something I'm going to do again.    Well, looks like I'm spending the rest of the day researching mite treatments.