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Author Topic: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago  (Read 2912 times)

Offline VermontHoneyBee

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Hi

One of my hives has a singing queen.  I hear her every time I go to the hive. I have tried to research so I understand if that is a bad sign but I am not having much luck.  What I read is that this is often done by new queens.  I know the hive only has one queen and she is not new.  What is she singing so much?.  I am not complaining and I actually think she is saying hello to me (ok, I know that is not the case).

Thanks

Offline herbhome

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2018, 03:16:49 pm »
Wow, I have yet to hear one pipe. I am eager to hear what others have to say on this. :smile:
Neill

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2018, 03:44:57 pm »
Vermont, queen singing is called piping.  I think I spelled it correctly.

I have listened to many a queen piping but only upon introduction or hatching.  My understanding is piping is a Queens way of saying HERE I AM.  Any other queens in the colony would respond accordingly.

To answer your question of why the queen is piping for weeks is not understood by me.  If there is any trace of OLEIC ACID, queen pheromone, on your gloves or clothing, this would trigger piping.  If the queen only pips when you open the hive then I would conclude somehow you are triggering.

The chemical name of oleic acid is: 9-oxo-2E-decenoic acid, probably more than you wanted to know.  However this chemical is a fatty acid commonly occurring in olive oil, vegatable oil, and many kitchen type oils,,,perhaps you contaminated your hive tool, gloves, or whatever with these oils.

I know queens are very active to this pheromone.  Case and point: queens are known to be handled without gloves and they rarely sting.  I hold queens in my bare hands to be marked.  However I now only handle one, because I got nailed right in the finger tip upon holding queen number two.  You see, when I handled the first queen, she marked me with her pheromone, when I grabbed the second queen she responded to the queen pheromone and nailed me.  So now I keep alcohol to remove any scent on my fingers or I just handle one queen.

Blessings
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 04:08:03 pm by Van, Arkansas, USA »

Offline VermontHoneyBee

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2018, 04:03:09 pm »
....is any trace of OLEIC ACID, queen pheromone, on your gloves or clothing, this would trigger piping.  If the queen only pips when you open the hive then I would conclude somehow you are triggering.
Blessings

She sings whenever I open the top cover to feed them.  Now sure if there is any scent on my globes from the other hives.  I have inspected the hive several times thinking that perhaps there were two queens but I am pretty certain that there is only one. 

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2018, 04:17:05 pm »
I believe you just answered your question: you picked up pheromone from another hive.  I would be courious if you used different gloves, alcohol wash your hive tool and see if she pipes again.

Anyway, that is kinda of cool that she sings to you, although it may be a death chant, but not towards you, but what she thinks is an intruder.
Blessings
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 04:59:36 pm by Van, Arkansas, USA »

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2018, 04:22:23 pm »
Honey bee queen piping, singing:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AYecvVhkpKI

Blessings

Offline eltalia

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2018, 04:51:08 pm »
@VermontHoneyBee

Van has it covered. I merely add an observation ot rather a deduction from seeing
the behavior many times.
The sound created mimics a high pitch"buzz" in the same way a drone produces
a low pitch "buzz". You can get close to the piping pitch level when trapping a
worker, like catch it between frame ears and gently compress it, they fairly go
off, "piping".
Often through circumstance I have had virgins 'trapped' in the colony by the
queen restrictor at the entrance, boy 0 boy does she go off, won't shut up until
the restrictor is removed.
So it is I accept "piping" is actually Queen Stress, not the romanticised "singing"
old Authors would convey to us in broken english, of sorts.

Bill

Offline VermontHoneyBee

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2018, 05:47:11 pm »
@VermontHoneyBee

.....So it is I accept "piping" is actually Queen Stress, not the romanticised "singing"
old Authors would convey to us in broken english, of sorts.

Bill

Ok.  Make sense.  I really liked the idea that she was singing to me  :smile:

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2018, 06:10:01 pm »
I think similar to a bird singing, is queen piping.  Although birds singing is pleasing to my ears, the bird is actually claiming territory, placing an audio no treaspassing by same species bird as with most birds such as Cardinals, mocking bird, blue jays... contrary to or opposite to grouping birds such as black birds that nest as a community.
Blessings

Offline eltalia

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2018, 09:00:05 pm »
I think similar to a bird singing, is queen piping.  Although birds singing is pleasing to my ears, the bird is actually claiming territory, placing an audio no treaspassing by same species bird as with most birds such as Cardinals, mocking bird, blue jays... contrary to or opposite to grouping birds such as black birds that nest as a community.
Blessings

Soooo... Van, crows.
"FARRRRK" is telling us what!!? :-D

[later]
For others it might prove prudent to note the origins of the "crow call"
in Australia.
https://thenewdaily.com.au/entertainment/tv/2013/12/27/analogue-tv-moments-graham-kennedy-banned/
Bill

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2018, 11:22:27 pm »
Vermont,
The next time you hear the piping, listen closely. See if you can hear distinct songs. Each queen has its own song. You can actually count the different queens by the difference in their songs.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline beepro

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2018, 12:41:37 am »
A queen pipping is also a sign that she is in distress, in this case, a balled queen.   If the sound  she
makes is a short high pitch then she got balled.   If it is short and low pitch then it is suffocating.  This usually happens when
there is a virgin queen in the mating nuc hive.

In this area I cannot find much infos on.  Maybe not enough study has been done here.
Anyways, I say to open the box and try to find the queen.  If she is running around then she is safe but if you find a small ball
on the frame, there might be a queen inside this ball of bees.    A virgin that got rejected by the hive for some reason will pipe for
weeks before she finally dies.  Wings tattered and all messed up.  So let's do a hive inspection to see what you find inside.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2018, 12:53:48 pm »
I found a mated queen being balled, only for a minute or so.  I removed the bees from the ball and placed the queen in a cage.  Only the front legs worked on the queen, hours later she died.  Upon necropsy the queen had bees stung in the chest (throax), on the underside, a tiny hole was clearly visible under scope.

I had been told bees never sting a queen, they will ball her and suffocate her.  Well this mated queen was clearly stung, quickly I might add.

In more detail, I was dismantling a queen castle, 10 frame, 4 partition, 2 frames each partition, I moved the 2 frames with eggs, assuming the queen was surely on the frames.  After I transferred the only 2 frames to new nuc, I don?t see the queen.  So I went back to the castle and the queen was on the floor being balled by bees from the other partitions.  So rare for a queen not to be on the frames.  That assumption cost me a mated queen.
Blessings

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2018, 02:10:11 pm »
I?m really surprised to here a queen piping for 4 weeks when there is only one queen in the hive. I here them when there are queens being kept in there cells when the bees are swarming over and over again. I call it super swarming.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2018, 03:29:45 pm »
Jim, we figured the queen would only pip when the hive was opened.  It appears there was queen pheromone on the gloves or the tool, I would have to reread all the texted again.
Blessings

Offline beepro

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2018, 07:25:27 pm »
"....dismantling a queen castle, 10 frame, 4 partition, 2 frames each partition, I moved the 2 frames with eggs, assuming the queen was surely on the frames....."


From the above queen pipping post, I say with experience from 6 seasons of queen rearing.  I've made all the queen rearing mistakes and learned everyone of them to heart.   Right now I don't use the queen castle set up anymore.  Too many virgin or mated queens got balled while I was testing the queen castle.   I only use single mating nuc either 2-4 frames of bees now.   If the QC is a bit large then I will use the double nuc (10 frames) for the mating nucs.  This will minimize the queen death.    I'm a big time queens killer over the years that I have to admit.

When I want to combine the bees in a queen castle either one side has a mated and laying queen, I just pull the divider holes, one at the end and one in the
front of the frame top bar.   This will allow the bees from the other side to gradually migrate to the queen right side over time.  If you just remove the divider to combine them then every mated queen or virgin will get balled.  The reason is that the smell of the new queen the foreign bees do not recognize so they thought it is an intruder.  Balling is the only option then.  Many queens got killed this way.   Using the mating nucs there is a 98% success rate to get a new laying queen.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2018, 08:09:18 pm »

"When I want to combine the bees in a queen castle either one side has a mated and
laying queen, I just pull the divider holes, one at the end and one in the...."

Now That has thrown a spanner in the works!

Up until just last year I always raised queens as either emergencys
in their own colony most commonly but occasionaly I got cells going and then
raised the cutiut QCs in starter finisher nuclei. Done that for decades.
Then I read here of "castling", try it, and 100% success so I return the castle
to a 'standard' colony and make that method the "new way".
Now I read that once I have taken the queens off removing the dividers is
going to result in the original queen, my line queen, being balled!

Have I read something erroneously, followed poor practice and just got lucky,
lost that queen and not known it - I am not in the habit of scrutinizing queens
and do not mark them. Or something else???
One part of my senses says it could happen residual bees in sections
of a castle may ball the occupying original queen but another (questioning)
says it is unlikely, and that first season of test and result held the latter
true.
So now I have a real quandry as I only do queen raising once a year and
to get it wrong in losing a line queen is not helpful in my apiary.
/wrings hands/

Bill


Offline VermontHoneyBee

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2018, 09:44:16 pm »
I inspected all my hives today and my hive with the singing queen, did not sing to me today.  Today I used a new set of gloves so perhaps the other globes did have queen scents from another hive.  The hive is doing great but I am sad that she may never sing to me again.  I know, I know.  She was not singing but piping and it is not supposed to be a good thing, but I can imagine that she loves me and she was saying "Hi there big fella"

Offline VermontHoneyBee

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2018, 04:56:52 pm »
Mystery solved. 

At first I thought I was going crazy and hearing things (because she started singing again).  The hive is doing really good and is one of the ones where population is exploding.  So why is she singing???.  There are two queens in the hive.  Both are laying and they sing to each other but do not kill each other.  I think that they are not thrilled that there is another queen but they tolerate each other.  I don't know. 

I decided to look in every frame until I found, what I thought was the only queen, so a caged her and continue to go through the frames removing burr and brace comb and propolis that was spreading the combs apart and then, there is was.... A queen.  I thought that maybe the queen escaped and flew back to the hive but no... There were two queens in the same hive... 

I decided to split the hive and separate the queens.  Both hives are doing well but now no more singing queens..... That is sad indeed.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Singing queen has been singing since installing nuc 4 weeks ago
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2018, 05:31:13 pm »
They don't sing to each other because they are friends they sing to the hive for protection from an enemy.  Each one has their own royal court.  Now just make sure they were both laying and one wasn't on its way out.
Brian Cardinal
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