Dying bees ????????????? helpful advice needed

[djgriggs]

I have been going out after work and watching the bees.. I have been seeing an accumulation of dead bees on the concrete in front of the hives. well I cleaned this off two days ago.. I go out today and there are 31 bees dead and dying and when I say dying I mean they are walking around , cannot fly some of the wings are out fully and unusable. I did not clearly see DWV but then again I only know it when I see it as the shriveled wings.

I am concerned because the bees are dying 31 by today's count and that is just within the last two days . I know with the grand number of bees in the hive it may not be a lot but it seems that way to me, or at least makes me very concerned to why the bees are just dying .

Please go to this link and let me know what you think. I took these clips and pictures today of those dying and dead bees. What are symptoms of pesticides on the bees could that be it or might it be bacteria or a virus from Varroa ?   https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wuXVryxP6B9qKmWxOTUxQhgZ7YKyUuoU?usp=sharing

[beepro]

I say it is from the varroa virus infecting the cap broods.   Now that they have emerged some bees cannot
fly so they ended up on the ground crawling around.   What is your mite count lately?   

You have to keep the mites under control otherwise on the next brood emergence cycle you will see more of
these crawling bees.    The effect of these mites are  e^X growth if your bees cannot suppress them.  By late Autumn they will
be over run with mites making it harder for the hive to make the big fat winter bees.    A hive crash is imminent! 

[djgriggs]

I am leaning toward poisoning .  The bees are showing the following symptoms.

front of each hive were 31 some dead some crawling about, unable to fly. the other day / maybe yesterday I thought some were quivering, trembling and showing signs of paralysis but what did I know as a first time beek. Most seemed disoriented and none could fly. There were a small number of dead bees in front of each hive that had not been there the last time I visited. not for sure if this is what is going on .. I have my first inspection by the Alabama inspector tomorrow.. I will see what he thinks and if there may be reason for concern,,, what am I saying, I am concerned already... 

[djgriggs]

I say it is from the varroa virus infecting the cap broods.   Now that they have emerged some bees cannot
fly so they ended up on the ground crawling around.   What is your mite count lately?   

You have to keep the mites under control otherwise on the next brood emergence cycle you will see more of
these crawling bees.    The effect of these mites are  e^X growth if your bees cannot suppress them.  By late Autumn they will
be over run with mites making it harder for the hive to make the big fat winter bees.    A hive crash is imminent!

will be doing a mite count tomorrow, in case this is what it is . I have decided to use Oxalic acid / have to order a vaporizer. I am looking for recommendations.

[beepro]

I rule out poison because if it is then 1000s of bees will die not just 31 or so each day.   At any time you will
see many bees crawling and shaking in shock condition.   So it must be something else other than poisoning. 

[beepro]

Also, I don't treat so cannot help you with a vaporizer recommendation.   This is my 4th season going tf, finally!
There are a few crawler but not that many like yours on each brood emergence cycle.  Yours must be over the mite infestation threshold. 
Don't worry though with the right care they will recover, eventually.

[djgriggs]

Also, I don't treat so cannot help you with a vaporizer recommendation.   This is my 4th season going tf, finally!
There are a few crawler but not that many like yours on each brood emergence cycle.  Yours must be over the mite infestation threshold. 
Don't worry though with the right care they will recover, eventually.

At first I was debating on to treat or not... I was thinking over the years when bees thrived back in the day , they were not treated , once everyone started to treat they seem to get weaker against the varroa , however I cannot stand to see them die :) so I will treat.. Some part of me still thinks that it might be possible to no treat the bees and eventually they will evolve and adapt to the Varroa... , But I honestly do not know enough as of yet to make an educated thought on the subject. :)

[Dustymunky]

My understanding is the viruses and diseaes are what kill the bees. The mites spread the disease and weaken the bees they parasite off of.

Treatments kill mites but are also stressful to the bees. Will treatment do more harm than good at this point? Will the bees overcome their parasite if left alone?  Personal questions you have to decide.

Not sure how big the hive is but 30 dead bees is not much for a 30,000 population hive. Are the bees ejecting infected bees to protect the hive?

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

The bees in the upper pic are Old bees as determined by hairless back (thorax.)

Bee in the bottom pics are very young, what we call fuzzies due to the fuzzy hair on the back.

If you read the article I posted about oxalic acid the bees become stronger as determined by spring count and number of eggs laid by the queen, 6 month post treatment.  When I treat, the bees show no signs of stress 5 minutes later the hive is back to normal.  Can?t even tell the hive was treated.

If your neighbor sprayed her flowers then you will have a few sick bees, if you are next to a farm with 100 acres sprayed with pesticides then you will have handfuls of dead bees.

Varrox is a good vaporizer, uses a 12 volt car battery.
Blessings

[beepro]

The issue is after you are gone who will be taking care of your bees and will they be able to
survive on their own even though you are not there to treat them?  The short term survival is dying bees but the
long term survival are healthy bees.  I look further into this equation and
decided that now is the time to get some tf resistant bees to keep.   This way even when I'm gone one day they can
still survive on their own.   Resistant queens are out there you just have to seek them out.   Think of their long term
survival not just in the present.  People keep bees hoping to maintain them but facing the mite situation they don't know
what is best for their bees.   To me the long term bee survival is to develop the survival bees!    Don't you agree?

[little john]

Treatments kill mites but are also stressful to the bees. Will treatment do more harm than good at this point?

Evidence ?  Vapourised Oxalic Acid generates zero negative response from the bees.  They demonstrate complete indifference to Oxalic Acid dust.

Will the bees overcome their parasite if left alone? 

Why should they ?  Varroa is a parasite, not a bacterial disease.  Sheep have never overcome ticks; dogs have never overcome roundworms; we have never overcome tapeworms or mosquitoes, nor body or hair lice (scabies) - we just keep these parasites under control in order to make life reasonably comfortable for us and our animals.

Take away soap, hygienic conditions and the therapeutic measures we employ - and parasites will thrive once again.

LJ

[djgriggs]

Are the bees ejecting infected bees to protect the hive?

Honestly , I do not know completely , As I have only seen these bees lying dead on the concrete, now I did see a bee yesterday trying to take some of the dead bees further from the hive so I would say so. but then again , I am not for sure. but they are less dead bees on the concrete this morning. so something is moving them. :)

[gww]

Lj
Overcome parisite might be too strong a word, however, in unmanaged bees, the bees have learned to survive just as long after mites as they were surviving before mites.  All living things eventually die, and so I guess they are all sick as well as heathy.  This was the same before and after mites.  So, as a species, the mites are not killing off the bees.  Some hives are sicker then others.  Treating has not stopped this either.  It may have stopped it for your particular hives for now and so may be worth doing but there is evidence that even there, the end story on cause and effect is not compleetly writen yet. 
Cheers
gww

[Dustymunky]

LJ, you seem to be a believer in treatments and I am not. Fair enough ;) I think this is something dj needs to decide. I personally think introducing chemicals into the hive is generally a bad idea. I hate to see dj panic over seeing some dead bees in front of the hive and do more harm than good.

Insects are probably the most adaptable creatures on the planet other than single cell organisms. Time and time again, man?s efforts to fix mother nature fail. 

I have never used treatments but have heard that care must be used when applying the acid treatments. Heard from several beeks getting burned when mistakes are made. I dont see how the introduction of formic or oxalic acid into the hive would not stress bees at a minimum.

[little john]

LJ, you seem to be a believer in treatments and I am not. Fair enough ;)

You couldn't be more wrong.  I have never once in my life treated bees for any disease whatsoever.  If my bees fall sick, then I modify the hive conditions - if that fails, then I re-queen.  If I was ever unlucky enough such that my colonies contracted one of the foul broods, then they would be destroyed immediately to prevent that disease from spreading (and to comply with our laws), but I would never treat them with antibiotics.

However - I do treat Varroa mites, just as I would 'treat' SHB, or hornets.  A clear distinction needs to be made between diseases and parasites.
LJ

[little john]

Lj
Overcome parisite might be too strong a word, however, in unmanaged bees, the bees have learned to survive just as long after mites as they were surviving before mites. 

There are examples of relatively small closed-populations of colonies surviving, I agree - but take the Varroa problem out into the big wide world, and the number of losses are truly staggering.  Sometimes I get the feeling that a certain sub-group of beekeepers consider that those of us that treat do it for fun, or something similar.  Treating mites (not bees) is time-consuming, and expensive - I would love not to be doing this ...

But I see my first responsibility - as a keeper of life-stock - to do everything in my power to assist the bees within my care to survive from one season until the next.  I will therefore do whatever it takes to achieve this.  I will not sit back and watch colonies of bees die, when I know full-well that the means of preventing this is within my ability.

You must have guessed by now (pretty obvious, really) that I hold a pretty dim view of the Treatment-Free community, an opinion which has been formed from a never-ending trickle of sad stories of large apiary losses - all due to Varroa infestations.

Apologies for partial thread-hijacking ...
LJ

[Dustymunky]

We all love our bees and do what we feel is best. Just different methods :)

[gww]

LJ

You must have guessed by now (pretty obvious, really) that I hold a pretty dim view of the Treatment-Free community, an opinion which has been formed from a never-ending trickle of sad stories of large apiary losses - all due to Varroa infestations.

I do understand that you take a dim view.  You have just not been proven correct in that view as being the only view.  It is well reconized that on tracial mites that there were treatments but the best treatment in the end was a queen change with a genetic line that was resistant rather then grease pattys.  There is no answer out there that says on varroa that treatment is the answer.  It is still being studied.  You mention getting rid of a hive with AFB.  It would be no worse to do the same with a hive that could not handle varroa as it would be to treat that hive.  In the end, the guy doing it has to decide what he is happy with.  There have been those same horror stories of treating bee keepers that have lost 80 percent of thier hives.  If you look at us numbers state by state, you can see some states have higher loss numbers than other states.  Is it cruelty to animals to keep bees in those bad states?

My view is that you should do what you need to do to keep your bees in a fassion that you feel is successful and makes you happy with what you consider success.  I believe those horror stories of treatment free beekeepers that have lost lots of bees as I believe those stories of treaters that have lost big numbers.

There is nothing wrong with you pointing out your experiances and what you have had success doing.  It would not discount that I am very happy for now with how my bees are performing with me doing it differrent.  If that ever changes, I will have to adjust.  When You see how good I do, you may want to adjust and not have to do all that work you talk of.

I do think location has a lot to do with what is going on with the bees.

I do not have a dim view of how you are keeping your bees.  It may be what you have to do for the bees you have and the location you keep them in.   It is not what I have to do yet.  One thing I am certain of, If you have live stuff, some of it will sometimes die no matter what you do.  It is the inbetween of that that we live in.

Cheers
gww

[moebees]

However - I do treat Varroa mites, just as I would 'treat' SHB, or hornets.  A clear distinction needs to be made between diseases and parasites.
LJ

According to the Gospel of LJ

[djgriggs]

On another note.

I am no longer worried about the bees dying from Varroa or pesticides. Due to the most recent thorough inspection.. No signs of Varroa ( unless it is in the cells ) and no signs of more dying bees.)

Below is the current findings.

 I had the North Alabama Bee inspector over yesterday.. He was there for about two hours, very helpful. He helped me to understand what I thought I was looking at was actually what I was looking at ( if that makes sense ) .

we went through both hives .. The foundation-less hive we went through both deep brood boxes ( found the queen ) In foundation hive we only went through the top brood box..

Pros
       > He mentioned how calm the bees were more than a few times,, He said a 1-10 they rank a 9
       > Queen in both Hives is a prolific layer of the egg :)
       > Brood pattern excellent along with honey production

Cons
       > in the foundation-less hive there are tons of drone cells even to the point that one comb is only drone.
       > In the foundation-less hive there are at least 3 queen cells currently with eggs.
       > In the foundation hive there are also some drone cells,, not as many as in the foundation-less hive
       > In the foundation Hive there are at least 2 / 3 queen cells,, One of which is capped.
       > Both Hives are completely ready to swarm

It was mentioned that on the foundation-less hive I might have 2 /3 weeks to split
It was mentioned that on the foundation hive I have less than a week to split.

I have ordered more material to support two splits.

I have one 8-frame cypress hive not in use < contains two deep brood boxes and two mediums.
I am going to use the two brood boxes for two splits.

He also informed me that I need to put the splits into a different yard or the bees could / would fly back to the original hive...... How can I prevent this I do not have an additional yard ?

[Dustymunky]

Good news dj! Foragers will go back to old hive but the nurse bees should stay with the split. Make sure split has enough resources and nurse bees to make it till the young bees graduate to forager caste. I would keep entrance small too since there wont be many guard bees. Queenless hives are also prone to robbing. Putting a stick or something like that in front of the new hive is supposed to cause bees to reorient to new location but i think most foragers will still go back to old hive. You can also screen in the bees in split till after dark to force them to stay overnight.  As long as they have resources and dont get robbed too much u should be fine.

I wouldnt consider drone comb a problem. Its natural urge for bees to make drones in spring. I believe they like about 25% of brood to be drone. If you were using all worker foundation the bees would build drones in all the bridge comb or anywhere else they could make it. Good luck with splits. Queen castle or nucs are really good for queen rearing btw.

[cao]

It is good to have the help on site to solve your problem. 

>He also informed me that I need to put the splits into a different yard or the bees could / would fly back to the original hive...... How can I prevent this I do not have an additional yard ?

I keep them in the same yard.  Sometimes the split is set right next to the original.  I would find the queen and take that frame with a couple others that contain some honey/nectar and pollen and put them in your new box.  That would simulate a swarm.  I find that more bees stay with the split when the queen is there. 

[djgriggs]

The general idea is to make the splits using capped brood x2 maybe 3 capped if have it. and one uncapped brood 1 / 2 honey / nectar. EHBBBBHE.. one of the brood frames that I will be using also have a queen cell.. one of the splits will be given a brood frame that includes 2 queen cells uncapped . the other split will have a brood with one capped queen cell. I want to keep the genetics as these bees / queen are of good quality / stock. :)

[cao]

Since they are already set to swarm, just removing queen cells won't guarentee that they queen won't swarm anyway.  That is the reason why I move the queen.  I also make pretty skimpy splits.  I will usually only pull three frames and put them in a 5 frame nuc.  That's medium frames, usually only 2 if they are deep frames.  That way if the split doesn't work it is not a great loss.  You always have the possibility that the new queen won't make it back from her mating flight.  This year I've been pretty lucky in that respect.  Probably running about 90% making it back. 

[djgriggs]

Since they are already set to swarm, just removing queen cells won't guarentee that they queen won't swarm anyway.  That is the reason why I move the queen.  I also make pretty skimpy splits.  I will usually only pull three frames and put them in a 5 frame nuc.  That's medium frames, usually only 2 if they are deep frames.  That way if the split doesn't work it is not a great loss.  You always have the possibility that the new queen won't make it back from her mating flight.  This year I've been pretty lucky in that respect.  Probably running about 90% making it back.

Interesting, I didn?t consider the queen not making it back

[djgriggs]

The general idea is to make the splits using capped brood x2 maybe 3 capped if have it. and one uncapped brood 1 / 2 honey / nectar. EHBBBBHE.. one of the brood frames that I will be using also have a queen cell.. one of the splits will be given a brood frame that includes 2 queen cells uncapped . the other split will have a brood with one capped queen cell. I want to keep the genetics as these bees / queen are of good quality / stock. :)

E= empty
H= honey
B= brood

[Bamboo]

>He also informed me that I need to put the splits into a different yard or the bees could / would fly back to the original hive...... How can I prevent this I do not have an additional yard ?

I keep them in the same yard.  Sometimes the split is set right next to the original.  I would find the queen and take that frame with a couple others that contain some honey/nectar and pollen and put them in your new box.  That would simulate a swarm.  I find that more bees stay with the split when the queen is there.

You can also once you have done your splits shift the original hive about 10 ft or so away from it's original position and have the splits where the original hive was. This means that the existing foragers will fly back to the original position meaning the new splits. The "parent" hive will have new brood hatching and they will orient to their new position thus keeping the bee population up in all the hives.
Cheers