Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Single brood box.  (Read 8436 times)

Offline Flydown

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 37
  • Gender: Male
Single brood box.
« on: May 21, 2018, 11:40:54 pm »
Do any of you guys run hives with only one brood box and honey supers? I have been reading a little about it and seem some videos and it seems interesting. Does it work and what are the pros and cons?
"Not everything that can be counted, counts. Not everything that counts, can be counted."
Albert Einstein

Enjoy your blessings.
Lenord Vaughan

Offline sc-bee

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2985
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2018, 12:40:10 am »
What is a brood box? What is a honey super? A box is a box is a box.... the bees will use it as they wish, unless you interfere with an excluder...
John 3:16

Offline BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13494
  • Gender: Male
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2018, 04:19:28 am »
If you are using deep boxes, I recommend that you allow at least 2 brood boxes, 3 for mediums, if you are going to use an excluder. If you try to keep the queen in less during your flow season you will induce swarming. Problem is some queens will need more room and even with the above amount, they will swarm. That is why a lot of us do not use queen excluders. The bees need to decide how much space they need. If a box has brood in it, it is a brood box, if only honey, it is a super.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8110
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2018, 08:41:01 am »
And very often a box has both so naming it one or the other is a beekeeper thing.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline little john

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2018, 01:19:50 pm »
Do any of you guys run hives with only one brood box and honey supers? I have been reading a little about it and seem some videos and it seems interesting. Does it work and what are the pros and cons?

Well, if I can side-step the abstract philosophy stuff ...  One single brood box with a super or two is the standard method of beekeeping in many countries.  In Britain, this format (with an 11-frame 8.5" deep brood box) was well-suited to the colony size of our native Black Bee (AMM) until it's demise in the 1920's.  When Italians and Buckfast took over, their larger colonies were accommodated in similar boxes, but with 12" deep frames.  I have several hives of this format, and they work extremely well.  Brother Adam operated with single 12-frame  Modified-Dadant brood boxes suitably supered, again with excellent results.  The 8.5" deep format is still the preferred size brood box in some areas of the UK, especially Scotland.

My best performing hives are 16- and 20-frame un-supered single brood boxes with 12" deep frames.

Cons ?  Single deep boxes are heavy to lift as one unit (so without mechanical aids, you don't).

Pros ?  Bees function extremely well on larger non-divided combs (see Dadant's 'System of Beekeeping' for a detailed explanation).  There are fewer boxes to purchase.  Swarming is significantly reduced.  Less management is required.  Winter survival is very good.

LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline AR Beekeeper

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 419
  • Gender: Male
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2018, 05:58:08 pm »
Flydown;  I have an assortment of hive configurations and I find the single Langstroth deep works here in our area.  The problems are that timing is critical, you need a supply of drawn comb both for brood and surplus honey, and coming out of winter colony food stores could be in short supply which would require feeding in unsettled weather.  Also, feeding is usually required after removing the honey crop, unless you leave a medium to last until October.  In your area of the state you should have enough soybean and smartweed so you would not have summer dearth feeding problems.

The plus side is that doing inspections, varroa washes and treatments, and moving hives from home to out-yards is a snap when compared to double deeps.  Feeding for winter using Miller style feeders is finished rapidly, and the colonies in singles overwintered well this past winter.

Offline Flydown

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 37
  • Gender: Male
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2018, 06:59:48 pm »
Actually AR Beekeeper,  the nearest soybean farm to me is several miles away and I don't have any places near them that I could set up an outyard. I need to learn more about all the plants in my area so I can better take advantage of them. I don't mind feeding though.
"Not everything that can be counted, counts. Not everything that counts, can be counted."
Albert Einstein

Enjoy your blessings.
Lenord Vaughan

Offline beepro

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 596
  • Gender: Male
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2018, 08:39:00 pm »
Depending on how strong is your flow, a single brood box configuration does not work in my area.  The
hives will be honey bound impeding the queen's ability to lay.   They might swarm too!   

Offline Flydown

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 37
  • Gender: Male
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2018, 09:20:05 pm »
Depending on how strong is your flow, a single brood box configuration does not work in my area.  The
hives will be honey bound impeding the queen's ability to lay.   They might swarm too!

In one of the videos that I watched, he ran the numbers top show why the queen would not be impeded as long as you put on enough honey supers. He is in Canada though. In Arkansas, things start blooming in March and it is almost steady until late October.
"Not everything that can be counted, counts. Not everything that counts, can be counted."
Albert Einstein

Enjoy your blessings.
Lenord Vaughan

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12422
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2018, 12:53:18 am »
@ Flydown
I think I might have seen that same video and it was very informative and made scene to me.. what are your thoughts?
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline beepro

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 596
  • Gender: Male
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2018, 06:18:06 am »
What happens when you use a single brood box is that they will put pollen and honey into the upper supers leaving the
bottom box full of cap broods with not much space to store food.   All cap broods!  For this process to work you have to use a QE on top of the
bottom box otherwise the queen will lay in the upper boxes creating an egg shape like brood nest that they prefer.  This defeat the
purpose of using a single brood box because the queen is free to lay anywhere.   And she will even lay into the upper supers too if space is low with
incoming nectar/cap honey.   In this case a QE serve its purpose!

You can try using one hive without the QE and another with a QE to see the difference.   It is a good education to learn what they will do.   Frankly, I
would use 2 brood boxes with QE on and then the rest are honey supers on top. 

Offline little john

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2018, 06:35:54 am »
What happens when you use a single brood box is that they will put pollen and honey into the upper supers leaving the bottom box full of cap broods with not much space to store food. 

In that case, your brood frames are nowhere near deep/large enough.  With deep brood frames, the bees store honey and some pollen (for their immediate use) directly above or adjacent to the brood nest - which means this still remains on the brood frames.  Only excess quantities of honey (which is then removed as a crop) is stored up into the supers, when these are fitted.

Once a band of honey is stored above the brood nest, the queen will not cross that, providing there is still room to lay in the deep brood frames.  Bees store pollen (in the form of fermented bee-bread) as close to the brood nest as possible - where they need it most.  If pollen is being stored elsewhere, then there is a problem with that hive design.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline Flydown

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 37
  • Gender: Male
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2018, 06:38:41 am »
@ Flydown
I think I might have seen that same video and it was very informative and made scene to me.. what are your thoughts?
At this stage, I am too new to try it but I am going to in the future.
"Not everything that can be counted, counts. Not everything that counts, can be counted."
Albert Einstein

Enjoy your blessings.
Lenord Vaughan

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12422
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2018, 09:07:50 am »
@ Flydown
I think I might have seen that same video and it was very informative and made scene to me.. what are your thoughts?
At this stage, I am too new to try it but I am going to in the future.

Same here ...
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19833
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2018, 10:15:30 am »
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12422
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2018, 10:34:48 am »
@ Michael Bush.  http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm
This is a very good article,  very informative, thanks for taking the time to post it... Sincerely, Phillip Hall
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline DeepCreek

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Gender: Male
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2018, 12:16:16 pm »
I'm experimenting with running several single deep brood boxes this year.  I can call them "brood" boxes because a QE separates my medium (honey-supers) from the single deep.  Calculations have been done regarding the # of cells in a 10 frame deep and the queens ability to run out of space.  Also, taking into consideration that some of these cells will be backfilled with nectar & pollen.  Once the top of the deep frames have a band of nectar, or the closest honey super has nectar in the frames the QE comes off.  I haven't had a queen cross from a deep to medium yet.  For me, my inspections are quicker with a single deep and I have had less swarm management to contend with.  I also work my hives every 7 to 10 days.  So... even with the heat of Eastern, NC, it can work.  When I was running double deeps I found that they were forced into a single deep come winter.  I also have a lot more equipment available with all the deeps I've removed. 

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12422
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2018, 04:06:15 pm »
I'm experimenting with running several single deep brood boxes this year.  I can call them "brood" boxes because a QE separates my medium (honey-supers) from the single deep.  Calculations have been done regarding the # of cells in a 10 frame deep and the queens ability to run out of space.  Also, taking into consideration that some of these cells will be backfilled with nectar & pollen.  Once the top of the deep frames have a band of nectar, or the closest honey super has nectar in the frames the QE comes off.  I haven't had a queen cross from a deep to medium yet.  For me, my inspections are quicker with a single deep and I have had less swarm management to contend with.  I also work my hives every 7 to 10 days.  So... even with the heat of Eastern, NC, it can work.  When I was running double deeps I found that they were forced into a single deep come winter.  I also have a lot more equipment available with all the deeps I've removed.

This is very interesting, good experiment. I would think the trick is regularly going through the hives as you are?
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline beepro

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 596
  • Gender: Male
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2018, 04:28:39 am »
"If pollen is being stored elsewhere, then there is a problem with that hive design."

I can assure you that there is no problem with the hive design.  I use the standard 5 frame deep nuc boxes both for honey collection and for confining the queen in the bottom box with a QE on top.   

Beekeepers have this belief that you cannot make honey and bees in the first season.  In this little experiment, I have 2 deep nucs storing honey above.  Follow by 2 brood nest in the middle and the last brood box is for the queen to stay in.   The top deep nuc box full of honey/nectar is about 60 lbs. each.  The honey are 90% cap now. And our main flow is not even on yet because of cooler weather earlier this season.  Maybe in another 2 weeks that our main flow will be on mainly privet nectar. 

Lots of young bees and pollen stored in the box above the brood nest.  You cannot see a single cell of either nectar or pollen in the bottom brood box.  So it is not the hive design but rather the hive configuration that I put the queen into.  These are the standard deep nuc boxes that ML sells.  I got them last year on the holiday sale.

If you don't believe me then just before the main flow set up a 5 deep nuc hive to see for yourself.  This hive is run by this season's early Spring queen that I rear. 


First year, 5 deep nuc boxes collecting honey:   http://imgbox.com/3qO9iqWg

Offline little john

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Single brood box.
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2018, 07:48:52 am »

Beepro - this thread is entitled Single Brood Box.  Just in case you're having some difficulty in understanding this ... SINGLE MEANS ONE.

Quote
What happens when you use a single brood box is that they will put pollen and honey into the upper supers leaving the bottom box full of cap broods with not much space to store food.

The comments I made re: the above were related to the concept of a single brood box.  If the queen is laying in an upper box and the bees are storing pollen there, then that box is functioning as yet another brood box - and NOT as a honey super - therefore there IS a flaw in that hive design.

Quote
I have 2 deep nucs storing honey above.  Follow by 2 brood nest in the middle and the last brood box is for the queen to stay in.   

So that's THREE brood boxes ? (plus maybe a super functioning as a brood box as well)  I'm beginning to understand why the guys on BeeSource gave you such a hard time over there ...

Quote
I can assure you that there is no problem with the hive design.

There's a problem somewhere, that's for sure ... but not with any hive design.

LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

 

anything