Virgin Queen & Mated Queen

[Ben Framed]

There are many breeders and suppliers.  From what I understand the demand for mated queens if great. So the turn over time is probably not an issue. But just for educational purposes, I have these questions. I have read where breeders place a queen cell in a (hair roller type cage) at a certain stage of development and she hatches in this setup along with her "sisters." I understand this is done in order to protect her and the other queens from each other while all will be hatching about the same time.  Is this correct?  If this is correct, how long will she, they, survive in this type of set up?  Another question along these same lines. Once she is hatched, how long is the maximum amount of time that she can be kept from mating without ill effects on her reproductive abilities? 

Now the mated queen question.  What is the longest that a mated queen be caged without ill effects on her laying ability. What is the  time period in which she is caged and not afforded the opportunity to lay, without damaging her reproductive abilities?  As I have said, I am sure, from what I have been told, they are moved to the customer directly after mating. Again this if just for my, and anyone else who may had these questions, understanding.  Thanks in advance. Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"

[beepro]

I have not done such an experiment to find out.  Doing so will be too inhumane.  Too
cruel to the queen bee(s.)   However, I've seen that after the 3rd day the change of a virgin being accepted by the mating nuc hive is less than a first day emerged queen.  To answer your question I would guess 3 days max without any food or water.  How this will affect her reproductive ability?  I don't know as every queen is not the same just like strong or weak people.  Some are stronger than the other because there are genetic variation within a batch of grafted QCs.  All I can say is every reproductive system is still intact and functional until the time she dies (out of starvation.)  Even when you can caged get her through on the 4th day what good is it if she is not being accepted by her colony?  If you feed her either honey or sugar then it will be another different story.  Are you willing to do this trial run to find out?  I will not, never! 

For the mated queen, 2 weeks will be the max time to cage her.  Caging too long will certainly have an affect on her laying ability.  Again, some queens are stronger than others so it is hard to compare them all.  I've read that certain beekeeper caged their mated queen for a month.  Though they did not say how it will affect her laying ability. This is hard to measure as each queen will react differently in a caged environment.

[Ben Framed]

[quote author=beepro link
"To answer your question I would guess 3 days max without any food or water."

"However, I've seen that after the 3rd day the change of a virgin being accepted by the mating nuc hive is less than a first day emerged queen.. "

"How this will affect her reproductive ability?  I don't know "

Thanks beepro. I went into detail only to a certain point because of so much wording. I wasn't trying to explain the whole process as I'm not a queen breeder nor expect to be,  nor do I know enough about it to be one to explain the whole process. From what I understand, the new queens are not left without food or water. They are placed in a mating nuke, where the bees in that nuke WILL feed her? Is this the way you do it at your facility? Now, hypothetically if they are hatched early in the season and no drones are tfound to be hatched in a breeding yard, now  I'm guess guessing same as you, I wouldn't think the breeder would turn her out of the cage until he or she was certain of a good chance that she would have a fair chance of mating and returning with the bees she might have took along the way on that mating flight. So would he not keep her caged until the time was right?

And in your breeding program you have held them back as long as 3 days before introducing them to a mating nuc? How did you feed all those queens for 3 days before introducing them to the nuc? Maybe they were so weak by the time you introduced them, is why the nuc wouldn't readily accept your queens?


You also answered "how will this affect their reproductive system I  don't know." 
Well I don't  known either. lol, But I would like to know. If there is a beepro that knows these answers please chime in. Thanks you beepro for trying to help.

[Acebird]

Probably the best person to ask these questions would be a queen breeder.  All I can say is idle time takes its toll.  The longer the time the worse it gets.

[kanga]

If this is correct, how long will she, they, survive in this type of set up?  Another question along these same lines. Once she is hatched, how long is the maximum amount of time that she can be kept from mating without ill effects on her reproductive abilities? 

It is referred to as 'Banking' and according to the below link a virgin queen can be 'Banked' for up to one week.
 
http://rosecombapiaries.com/2012/04/banking-virgin-queens/

Now the mated queen question.  What is the longest that a mated queen be caged without ill effects on her laying ability. What is the  time period in which she is caged and not afforded the opportunity to lay, without damaging her reproductive abilities?  As I have said, I am sure, from what I have been told, they are moved to the customer directly after mating.

Generally speaking you are correct in saying that they are moved on to the customer once they are mated.

Dave Cushman has an article on Banking mated queens which I think may help.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/queenbanking.html

When purchasing queens which are being sent through the post it can be up to a week from the time they are caged to when they are introduced into the new nuc.

Kev

[Ben Framed]

If this is correct, how long will she, they, survive in this type of set up?  Another question along these same lines. Once she is hatched, how long is the maximum amount of time that she can be kept from mating without ill effects on her reproductive abilities? 

It is referred to as 'Banking' and according to the below link a virgin queen can be 'Banked' for up to one week.
 
http://rosecombapiaries.com/2012/04/banking-virgin-queens/

Now the mated queen question.  What is the longest that a mated queen be caged without ill effects on her laying ability. What is the  time period in which she is caged and not afforded the opportunity to lay, without damaging her reproductive abilities?  As I have said, I am sure, from what I have been told, they are moved to the customer directly after mating.

Generally speaking you are correct in saying that they are moved on to the customer once they are mated.

Dave Cushman has an article on Banking mated queens which I think may help.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/queenbanking.html

When purchasing queens which are being sent through the post it can be up to a week from the time they are caged to when they are introduced into the new nuc.

Kev

Thanks Kanga, Kev,   Really good information here thank you for your replys!! Phillip Hall

[beepro]

They are placed in a mating nuke, where the bees in that nuke WILL feed her?
Yes, this is what I use so that the bees will feed her within hours of her emergence from the incubator.  A few hours of waiting while they're still inside the incubator will not hurt at all.  But get them into those mating nucs made 3 days before. 

Is this the way you do it at your facility?   Yes, made up the mating nucs ahead of time so that there are bees in there to feed her along.  Timing is everything on queen rearing.

So would he not keep her caged until the time was right?  Caging virgins beyond the 3 days time frame will diminish the success of introducing her.  The chance of getting the virgin balled will increase beyond this 3 days critical time.   I don't know how other queen breeders are doing it.  But for me I will have my mating nucs ready before the virgins emerged and asap get them into the mating nuc.   She will take 7 days to harden up post emergence so there is no need to cage her anyways.   When the weather is bad she will delay her mating flights up to 3 weeks is still fine.  This is her window of opportunity to have a successful mating.

And in your breeding program you have held them back as long as 3 days before introducing them to a mating nuc?  Nope, you got me wrong.   I will asap introduce these virgins into their mating nucs.  I already knew that within these 3 days you still have a chance of successfully introducing her into the nuc.  So I will never cage the virgin at all.  The most is 7 hours after she emerged.

How did you feed all those queens for 3 days before introducing them to the nuc?  This job is for the bees to do while she is in the mating nuc.  So that I don't have to feed them.  Get them in those nucs as soon as you can.   Some will not use an incubator and directly introduce the QC into the mating nuc.

Maybe they were so weak by the time you introduced them, is why the nuc wouldn't readily accept your queens?   Nope, every queen I introduced is within the 3 days time frame.  They are not weak at all.  I only chose the healthy queens for these mating nucs.  I will never pick the weak queen only the ones that have been evaluated to keep.
 

Queen rearing like beekeeping will have its learning curve that you have to go through.  After a few rounds you should be able to find out its secrets.

[Ben Framed]

"However, I've seen that after the 3rd day the change of a virgin being accepted by the mating nuc hive is less than a first day emerged queen"
/quote]

Glad you cleared that up because your above statement is why I ask.  There is along way from just a day of being introduced after hatching as compairednto the queens being held without food and water for three days before being introducedn to the mating nuke as your first statement.  You have to remember, I am new and take your statements literally. Thanks Phillip

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

It?s been a little long time since I have had a queen rejected.  You learn tricks that work for queen acceptance.

Feeding queens:  queens emerge hungry, very hungry, so I feed immediately if hatched in an incubator.  There are small compartments on a hair roller cage for feeding and watering the queen.  The queen can only place her tongue in these feed compartments.

I do not believe a queen would last 8 hours without food and water.  I admit, I have never tried.

Banking queens:  I do not do this, fertility or successfully laying is degraded by time.
A queen castle or nuc is prime for rearing virgin queens for mating.
A mating nuc is acceptable means for a virgin queen to be mated.

[Ben Framed]

It?s been a little long time since I have had a queen rejected.  You learn tricks that work for queen acceptance.

Feeding queens:  queens emerge hungry, very hungry, so I feed immediately if hatched in an incubator.  There are small compartments on a hair roller cage for feeding and watering the queen.  The queen can only place her tongue in these feed compartments.

I do not believe a queen would last 8 hours without food and water.  I admit, I have never tried.

Banking queens:  I do not do this, fertility or successfully laying is degraded by time.
A queen castle or nuc is prime for rearing virgin queens for mating.
A mating nuc is acceptable means for a virgin queen to be mated.

Thank you Mr Van, I have read many post, posted by you. Thank you for taking the time to give this response.  Sincerely, Phillip

[little john]

I have read where breeders place a queen cell in a (hair roller type cage) at a certain stage of development and she hatches in this setup along with her "sisters." I understand this is done in order to protect her and the other queens from each other while all will be hatching about the same time.  Is this correct? 

Yes

If this is correct, how long will she, they, survive in this type of set up? 

That depends on whether there are worker bees present.  In an incubator, provided there is a supply of food in the roller cage, certainly a few days.  But most breeders using this method check them daily at minimum.  Some breeders add one or two worker bees inside the roller cage to ensure that the virgin queen is fed, although she's quite capable of feeding herself  from honey placed in depressions made within the roller cage lid for that purpose.

Some breeders place roller cages around queen cells just prior to emergence within queenless colonies (not incubators) - the bees feed these virgins as they would any other bee in the colony.

Survival in a roller cage is not so much determined by feed itself - but by whether the virgin queen attempts to return into the queen cell.  If she does this, then she'll not be able to back-out of the cell afterwards, and so will die inside it.  Hence frequent inspections by the queen-rearer, who will 'squish' the wax cell to prevent this from happening.

Another question along these same lines. Once she is hatched, how long is the maximum amount of time that she can be kept from mating without ill effects on her reproductive abilities? 

Emerged, not hatched.  The figure usually given is around a month (if memory serves).  After that time she is destined to become a drone-layer.  Of perhaps more importance (imo) is what happens within the first few days: when the virgin first emerges, she produces no queen pheromone - and so can be placed with relative impunity into any colony without encountering issues of acceptance.  However, after 3 days she will begin to smell like a queen, and so suitable introduction precautions then need to be taken.

Now the mated queen question.  What is the longest that a mated queen be caged without ill effects on her laying ability. What is the  time period in which she is caged and not afforded the opportunity to lay, without damaging her reproductive abilities? 

This question is perhaps best addressed by examining experiments which have been conducted into the over-wintering of mated queens.  It has been shown that as long as six months can be achieved (similar to the length of time that many colony-based queens spend without laying) - but - the issue then becomes one of survival itself.  The figures for this are very poor (imo); with only 10-20 percent or so of banked caged queens (i.e. not colony-based) surviving for that length of time.  In the studies I've read, subsequent laying performance appears to be unaffected - but it's the mortality figures themselves which I find so disappointing.   In contrast mated Queens held in 5-frame nucs, and which encountered a similar period of non-laying, faired a lot better - 70 percent plus, if memory serves.

I could dig out the relevant papers if you want to delve deeper into this ...
LJ

[Ben Framed]

I have read where breeders place a queen cell in a (hair roller type cage) at a certain stage of development and she hatches in this setup along with her "sisters." I understand this is done in order to protect her and the other queens from each other while all will be hatching about the same time.  Is this correct? 

Yes

If this is correct, how long will she, they, survive in this type of set up? 

That depends on whether there are worker bees present.  In an incubator, provided there is a supply of food in the roller cage, certainly a few days.  But most breeders using this method check them daily at minimum.  Some breeders add one or two worker bees inside the roller cage to ensure that the virgin queen is fed, although she's quite capable of feeding herself  from honey placed in depressions made within the roller cage lid for that purpose.

Some breeders place roller cages around queen cells just prior to emergence within queenless colonies (not incubators) - the bees feed these virgins as they would any other bee in the colony.

Survival in a roller cage is not so much determined by feed itself - but by whether the virgin queen attempts to return into the queen cell.  If she does this, then she'll not be able to back-out of the cell afterwards, and so will die inside it.  Hence frequent inspections by the queen-rearer, who will 'squish' the wax cell to prevent this from happening.

Another question along these same lines. Once she is hatched, how long is the maximum amount of time that she can be kept from mating without ill effects on her reproductive abilities? 

Emerged, not hatched.  The figure usually given is around a month (if memory serves).  After that time she is destined to become a drone-layer.  Of perhaps more importance (imo) is what happens within the first few days: when the virgin first emerges, she produces no queen pheromone - and so can be placed with relative impunity into any colony without encountering issues of acceptance.  However, after 3 days she will begin to smell like a queen, and so suitable introduction precautions then need to be taken.

Now the mated queen question.  What is the longest that a mated queen be caged without ill effects on her laying ability. What is the  time period in which she is caged and not afforded the opportunity to lay, without damaging her reproductive abilities? 

This question is perhaps best addressed by examining experiments which have been conducted into the over-wintering of mated queens.  It has been shown that as long as six months can be achieved (similar to the length of time that many colony-based queens spend without laying) - but - the issue then becomes one of survival itself.  The figures for this are very poor (imo); with only 10-20 percent or so of banked caged queens (i.e. not colony-based) surviving for that length of time.  In the studies I've read, subsequent laying performance appears to be unaffected - but it's the mortality figures themselves which I find so disappointing.   In contrast mated Queens held in 5-frame nucs, and which encountered a similar period of non-laying, faired a lot better - 70 percent plus, if memory serves.

I could dig out the relevant papers if you want to delve deeper into this ...
LJ

little john. I just want to tell you that you explanation is more that enlightening, you couldn't have answered my questions any better if your were a bee scientist.. I thank you Sir for this in depth explanation on each of these questions. This will be something that I will copy and print to keep for reference for years to come! Thanks and God Bless!! Soncerely, Phillip Hall