Laying workers are getting the boot

[Hobbyist]

I just want to confirm something. I did a split recently and unfortunately it swarmed right when a queen emerged and after she layed eggs for a new queen. Well the queen cells were capped when I did an inspection about 20 days ago. I don't want this hive to swarm again so I want to throw another box on top to provide more room. I have also started seeing worker bees with clipped wings getting thrown out of the hive. Please correct me if I am wrong but they would only be kicking out laying workers if the queen was present and laying. I ask because I don't want to open the hive and have that cause the workers to kill the newly accepted queen.

[iddee]

1...Laying workers don't have clipped wings.
2...They don't throw out laying workers.
3....After 20 days, it is safe to open the hive and check for eggs.
4...It is OK to add another box only if the hive is now 80% full or more.

[Acebird]

You forgot (5) Wally: Clipped wing is not a thing.  More likely K wing which is a virus spread by mites.

[Hobbyist]

From what I read the laying worker population increases dramatically when a queen has been gone for more than 24 days and no brood is present. I understand there can be a small laying worker population and that is normal but once the queen is established the other bees don't like having so many laying workers. As a result I have read that they kill them off. This would make sense because I have observed for the past couple days bees taking out workers and clipping their wings. It is definitely more than 80% full. But it is good to know that 20 days after emergence they will be fine. Just to clarify the one that I am nervous about swarming again is the one that I split ,the one that hasn't had a queen for a while. I know what k wing looks like. I saw two bees pulling out one by the wings. I saw multiple all over the ground that had their larger part of the wings missing. These were still alive on the ground btw.

[Acebird]

Do you have a source for this behavior?  I have never heard of such a thing.

[Hobbyist]

 A source for Clipping the wings no. That is just from observation because I watch my hives for extended periods of time. But killing laying workers because they are overwhelming the hive is something I have read from multiple sources. But maybe I am misunderstanding. I am not above error.

[iddee]

I would like to see a couple links to those "multiple sources". I have kept and studied bees for over 40 years and have never heard of that.
Ace, I would think deformed wing before k-wing, but being a newly queen situation, drones being evicted would be my next guess. Once the new queen is mated, they don't need drones any more.

Laying workers quit laying once the hive has queen pheremones and brood pheremones. The bees do not evict them.

[Hobbyist]

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

Some of his stuff is quoting other bee journals. The hive police worker bees. I am taking that as evicting if they are overwhelming the hive. Maybe I am assuming wrong.

[BeeMaster2]

Patrick,
I read the above link and did not see any mention of clipping the wings of laying worker bees. Maybe I missed it.
It is very possible that they do do it because I personally have seen a ball of bees in the grass in front of my hives and found a young queen in the middle of it alive with its wings clipped. This prevents her from mating and also from returning to the hive.
Jim

[AR Beekeeper]

I would guess that what is seen is workers removing bees with wings damaged by Deformed Wing Virus.  Laying workers will stop laying when a queen's open brood produces brood pheromone.

Virgins often have damaged wings and are ejected from the hive, also as a queen ages her wings are worn by the bees brushing/nipping them as she moves over the comb.  I have seen old queens with wings very worn, just before being superseded.

[Hobbyist]

I'll show you guys some pictures.

[Hobbyist]

Jim told me it is probably just robbing which makes sense.

[iddee]

If this is what you are referring to in the link,

"""Anarchistic bees" are ever present but usually in small enough numbers to not cause a problem and are simply policed by the workers UNLESS they need drones. The number is always small as long as ovary development is suppressed.""

Policing means removing the unfertilized eggs, not the laying workers. Notice the ""UNLESS they need drones".
Then they will allow the eggs to stay to produce the drones they want.

[Oldbeavo]

I have found it is hard to establish a queen in a laying worker hive, the bees think they have queen and tend to kill an introduced queen or tear down a cell.
I usually take the brood box away a bit and shake all the bees onto the ground, put the box back in place and add a frame of brood and eggs to let them form a QC. Not a 100% successful but is the best system I know.
Laying worker hives are a pain in the rear end.

[Acebird]

Laying worker hives are a pain in the rear end.

That is why I would dump them.  Any bee worth its salt will find a home.

[Michael Bush]

I have never seen bees throw out laying workers.  The numbers of laying workers grows into the thousands.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00299895
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00218839.1995.11100883

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Oldbeavo, Agreed 100%.  I treat a laying worker hive same as you discussed and I have experienced success.  Success defined as ridence of laying workers and acceptance of a mated queen that lays: Returning the hive to normal.

[eltalia]

I have found it is hard to establish a queen in a laying worker hive, the bees think they have
queen and tend to kill an introduced queen or tear down a cell.
I usually take the brood box away a bit and shake all the bees onto the ground, put the box b
ack in place and add a frame of brood and eggs to let them form a QC. Not a 100% successful
but is the best system I know.
Laying worker hives are a pain in the rear end.

Hardly "best" ol' mate when you have just wiped out much of bee resources
in moving forward. Utilising the phereomones works without that loss or at
least reduced losses.
I have layed out the method before today... again, that discussion went dead.

Bill