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[eltalia]

(edit)
That flaw is the feral hives that can't be treated.  So even if all managed hives were treated, there would
always be mites alive to infect treated hives.  These treated bees IMO would not be as well equipped to
survive than ones that have not been treated.

This the line being pushed around the backrooms of b'keep gatherings
in this Country also, cao.
Sounds good, don't it?
Problem is it relies on an unknown, and an unkown which I read is behind
much of the controversy in the Americas and parts of Europia.
Being... the wild hives will carry Varroa *and* those colonies will transfer
 that parent population to managed EHB field bees. Is any of that true?

As it has been reported wild colonies found to be Varroa "resistant" are
 being used to support gene lines in managed EHB I am yet to be convinced
our wild populations will not react in a similar way when Varroa gets here.
That leaves what LJ is suggesting as being the reality if everyone applied
OA - no Varroa

Bill

[Acebird]

These treated bees IMO would not be as well equipped to survive than ones that have not been treated.

I respect any one with a science background but this is logical thinking.

Van, science has brought us "life saving" drugs to control cholesterol levels only to find out it doesn't matter whether you take them or not.  And the kicker is diet and exercise would help more.  Treating is on the rise so is death.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Ace, I have to agree with ya on chlorleserol, big pharma just wants money so the science is a little crooked.

{We} my working career, we told big pharma there was a problem with the new proposed Lyme vaccine {based on OSP A antigen} We told pharma their was likelihood of an autoimmune disease.  Well, they wanted money, pharma ignored our warning, created and dispense the vaccine with disastrous results.


The science was there, bonafied accurate data, but the lust for money was greater than the warning.  Same with cholesterol drugs today.  The science, the real data was good, but the vision was clouded, blurred with greed.

BTW: I was one they threw the chlorestrol at, I dodged the bullet, refused to take the drug, I knew the data, the bonafied data.  For twelve years I have refused those chlorestrol reducing drugs.

This chlorestrol may seem off topic, but relates indirectly to science of oxalic acid which is bonafide data.
Blessings

[Michael Bush]

>MB{You are selecting for virulent mites whenever you treat.}
This is correct if one is referring to a miticide that has a prominent mode of action (such as inhibition of cell wall synthesis, penicillin) as most antibiotics vs bacteria, very true.  However when I do treat I treat with oxalic acid (a natural component of Honey) with has multi modes of action which poses the question in resistance even possible.

I'm not talking about resistance to chemicals.  Any treatment that kills mites is selecting for mites that can reproduce fast enough to make up for those killed by the treatments regardless of the mode of action.  Systemic acarcides, of course, are also selecting for resistance to the chemicals as well.  But that aspect of resistance does not necessarily make the mites more virulent.  It is killing them by any means that selects for reproductive capability.

[Hops Brewster]

For a moment, let's compare a few different varieties of apples and leave out the oranges, the oranges being synthetic chemicals and the apples being acids now used as pesticides, Oxalic, Formic and Boric.   

Formic acid has a growing history as an effective miticide in our hives.  Formic acid is made naturally by certain insects and is used by those insects as a powerful defense mechanism against their predators, and has been for millennia. Formic acid is also used by humans as an anti-bacterial preservative.   We don't see a lot of discussion about resistance developing to formic acid.  Is there any indication of such?

Boric acid has been used a household and industrial insecticide for over 100 years and is still going.  It's used against ants, cockroaches, silverfish and other household pests.  It is even reported to kill rodents.  I do not know of any resistance developing against boric acid.  I wouldn't try BA in my hives as it is too strong but I use it in my own home on an as-needed basis when I get ants.

We all know the reported effects of oxalic acid on mites.  At this point in time it seems to be a reasonably effective miticide with no known developed resistance in a 20+ year history of use in Europe.  What we don't know yet are the longer term effects.  Only time will tell.  But, given the history of the other 2 acids mentioned and a growing track record of its own, I am willing to give OA the benefit of the doubt and use it in my own hives on an as-needed basis.
Acids work.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

MB{I'm not talking about resistance to chemicals.  Any treatment that kills mites is selecting for mites that can reproduce fast enough to make up for those killed by the treatments regardless of the mode of action.}

Yes, M. Bush, Agreed,,, reminded me of what a professor told me:  stress an organism and the organism will adapt to the stress, if possible.  However, Hops answered (very well I might add)my point  with acids.

Hops, that text on acids is beautiful good analogy????100(s) of years is hard to argue.  Point well made and taken.

[beepro]

If it were me, I would ask to graft some queens at his location to get the tf bees.  Then transfer the queens to your current
location.   The other half of the equation are the tf drones too to complete the whole tf process.   Mating virgin queens at the
location of the treated bees are not that effective.   You needed both!     Why settle for half of the honey when you can have all of them?
Another option is to take your virgin queens there to mate with his tf drones.   After the 2nd generation you will have majority of the tf bees then
you can take them back to your bee yard.   

[Acebird]

I am willing to give OA the benefit of the doubt and use it in my own hives on an as-needed basis.
Acids work.

They work for some and not for others.  Beekeepers for the most part are not doctors, scientist, or skilled technicians in the delivery of pesticides.  Any pesticide can kill the target pest or the host.  The line between one and the other is not that vast.  In the case of bees it is difficult to know where that line is because most colonies are different.  The environment is too large and varied for man to control.  Man has never eradicated any disease, insect, or pest on the earth and never will for the next thousand years.  As you say Van money is the motivation to target anything undesirable for the human race.  You can just add OA to that list.