Author Topic: Options for expansion (Read 4119 times)

bwallace23350 · « **on:** April 07, 2018, 09:51:42 am »

I am good friends with an elderly beekeeper, he also happens to be my most regular chess playing partner. He has bees and he keeps them treatment free and has for years. He has made me the offer, because I spend more time with my bees than he does and I have more energy, to let me have a couple of hives but just go halves on the honey harvested. To top it off I bet he will even deliver the hives. Would this be a good idea to get proven resistant bees even if I only get half the honey or should I try to split my own hive to expand out the bee operation?

little john · « **Reply #1 on:** April 07, 2018, 10:16:29 am »

You say "proven resistant bees" - but are they ? Let me expand on that ...

By "treatment-free", do you mean chemical-free ? (most people do) Because he may be 'treating' them in a physical way: brood breaks, removal of drone comb and so forth. If that is the case, then is that something that you already do - or something you'd be prepared to do ? Might be worth asking him about his method of working, perhaps ?
LJ

bwallace23350 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 07, 2018, 10:23:56 am »

No treatment and because of some health issues actual very little interaction with his hives. In fact this caused him to lose many of his hives and just is now getting back to actually taking care of his bees. This caused his lone hive that lived to survive without a humans for a couple of years. They have now swarmed and taken up space in some of his other hive bodies.

Beeboy01 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 07, 2018, 10:41:55 am »

Can't think of any reason not to take him up on his offer, he's going to mentor you and supply some bees also, hey go for it. Just on a side note I would still perform a mite count every month just to keep track of what is happening. Luck with it.

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 07, 2018, 10:42:23 am »

Wallace,
By all means, I would accept the offer. Sounds like a great deal.
Jim

Acebird · « **Reply #5 on:** April 07, 2018, 11:12:57 am »

Quote from: bwallace23350 on April 07, 2018, 09:51:42 am

I am good friends with an elderly beekeeper, he also happens to be my most regular chess playing partner. He has bees and he keeps them treatment free and has for years.

Are you treating? If so I would not move them to your house if it is possible to work them at his house. Take the swarm first. If all goes well take the rest.

little john · « **Reply #6 on:** April 07, 2018, 02:32:55 pm »

Quote from: bwallace23350 on April 07, 2018, 10:23:56 am

No treatment and because of some health issues actual very little interaction with his hives. In fact this caused him to lose many of his hives and just is now getting back to actually taking care of his bees. This caused his lone hive that lived to survive without a humans for a couple of years. They have now swarmed and taken up space in some of his other hive bodies.

Hi - from what you write, I can't think of one single reason not to take him up on that offer - seems to me that you have absolutely nothing to lose, and everything to gain. You might even get real lucky with developing a resistant/tolerant line.
Best of luck,
LJ

Van, Arkansas, USA · « **Reply #7 on:** April 07, 2018, 03:51:56 pm »

Ace, I have treatment free and treated hives in the same yard. Works well for me.

bwallace23350 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 07, 2018, 06:10:53 pm »

I have something of about 10 acres to put the bees on. They will be on the same continuous plot of ground but not side by side

I am going to take him up on the offer.

Acebird · « **Reply #9 on:** April 08, 2018, 09:06:26 am »

Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on April 07, 2018, 03:51:56 pm

Ace, I have treatment free and treated hives in the same yard. Works well for me.

I can see that happening.
I think it is quite different to take bees that have not been treated for a long time and move them to an apiary where treatment is practiced. The untreated hives could parish very quickly. Moving any hive that is untreated to anywhere else is a risk in itself.
There is fear that it could go the other way. The untreated hive is presumed a mite bomb and takes out the treated hives. I think that is more fear then reality.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #10 on:** April 10, 2018, 11:34:24 am »

I don't know that I agree with Tom Seeley's conclusions but when he took survivor feral bees and put them in the beeyard and they died, he concluded it was the higher virulence of the treated mites that caused it, which is not unreasonable. You are selecting for virulent mites whenever you treat. You are selecting for mites that can reproduce fast enough to make up for you killing them in large numbers. I think the other thing Seeley failed to take into account was cell size... He put the feral survivors on large cell foundation.

Van, Arkansas, USA · « **Reply #11 on:** April 10, 2018, 01:24:59 pm »

Thanks, Ace, MB for the comments, so noted.

MB{You are selecting for virulent mites whenever you treat.}
This is correct if one is referring to a miticide that has a prominent mode of action (such as inhibition of cell wall synthesis, penicillin) as most antibiotics vs bacteria, very true. However when I do treat I treat with oxalic acid (a natural component of Honey) with has multi modes of action which poses the question in resistance even possible.

oxalic acid has so many modes of action to a Varroa mite, compare the acid to fire: pertaining to modes of action only. Can an organism resist or acquire resistance to fire with so many modes of action. Certainly fire has more modes of action than oxalic acid, I am exaggerating to make a point.

I cannot state resistance is impossible, I worked with antibiotic resistant organisms for decades in a P4 laboratory in which there about 3-4 such labs in the US. P4 laboratorys are the highest secured labs on the planet. One can?t not even walk into these laboratories without passing through multiple armed Federal Guards. Doors are automatically controlled via a Body sensor and passage is tracked.

My boss would present me a particular bacterium, note fatalities, P3, then advise me to discover the genesis of resistance. How did the organism acquired resistance to multi antibiotics.

So even with multi modes of action, for oxalic acid I just cannot say ?resistance is impossible? but I consider resistance unlikely, given so many modes of action with oxalic acid.
Blessings

AR Beekeeper · « **Reply #12 on:** April 10, 2018, 03:37:43 pm »

According to Seeley the cell size the bees had "naturally" built in the feral colonies measured 5.3 mm.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #13 on:** April 10, 2018, 04:20:09 pm »

The comments on this post have been very enlightening, The very reason that I joined this forum! Your Great minds discussing different opinions on the same subject, all in a gentlemanly manner. This is why I joined this forum in the first place, to learn from the pros and not be afraid to ask a question from time to time. learning from the best! As being new here, I would like to hear some of the lady's chime in and express their thought on this also? Thanks to all.
Sincerely, Phillip Hall. "Ben Feamed"

little john · « **Reply #14 on:** April 10, 2018, 06:07:04 pm »

Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on April 10, 2018, 01:24:59 pm

[...] I consider resistance unlikely, given so many modes of action with oxalic acid.

Resistance to synthetic systemic miticides I can easily envisage, but not to the physical assault of Oxalic Acid. A mite would need to develop the equivalent of prosthetic mouth-parts AND feet in order to acquire resistance to such an aggressive acid.
It's been in use now for over 20 years and there's still no sign yet of any resistant mites. The only reason we still have a mite problem over here in Europe is because so many people are NOT treating with OA, and so are keeping a viable population of mites alive which then spread into neighbouring treated hives.
LJ

little john · « **Reply #15 on:** April 10, 2018, 06:09:38 pm »

Quote from: Michael Bush on April 10, 2018, 11:34:24 am

You are selecting for virulent mites whenever you treat. You are selecting for mites that can reproduce fast enough to make up for you killing them in large numbers.

Conjecture ... ? Or is there any hard evidence for this claim ?
LJ

Acebird · « **Reply #16 on:** April 10, 2018, 09:24:52 pm »

Quote from: little john on April 10, 2018, 06:07:04 pm

The only reason we still have a mite problem over here in Europe is because so many people are NOT treating with OA, and so are keeping a viable population of mites alive which then spread into neighbouring treated hives.
LJ

LMAO This is by far the most twisted logic I have read on a forum.

Van, Arkansas, USA · « **Reply #17 on:** April 10, 2018, 11:39:23 pm »

Ace, I have a lot of respect for you fella, you have provided very sound advice to a lot of folks.

However: What Lil John stated ?the only reason we have mites....folks not treating with oxalic acid....?. Is very logical statement based on bonafide scientific knowledge. Lil John is no farm boy, he knows his science and what he does not know he is quick to say so.

I have to agree 100% with Lil John, it?s no laughing matter. The science is well understood and the same science has been applied from small pox to polio to controlling HIV. Parasite: apply least harmful most effective treatment, treat all, problem solved.
Blessings

cao · « **Reply #18 on:** April 10, 2018, 11:59:58 pm »

I respect all of your scientific knowledge (which is way more than mine). But I see a flaw in the practical application of treating all hives to solve the mite problem. That flaw is the feral hives that can't be treated. So even if all managed hives were treated, there would always be mites alive to infect treated hives. These treated bees IMO would not be as well equipped to survive than ones that have not been treated.

eltalia · « **Reply #19 on:** April 11, 2018, 07:11:13 am »

Quote from: Acebird on April 10, 2018, 09:24:52 pm

Quote from: little john on April 10, 2018, 06:07:04 pm
The only reason we still have a mite problem over here in Europe is because so many
people are NOT treating with OA, and so are keeping a viable population of mites alive
which then spread into neighbouring treated hives.
LJ

LMAO This is by far the most twisted logic I have read on a forum.

Logic for you my friend is a rollacoaster, not a penny hardtwisted lolly!
:lmao:

Seriously :-))
I have already built my training modules in readiness for the day
VD - or VJ - get here. Are you telling me 7 (seven) months work is for
nought simply because you cannot follow the thought?
What is it I need to do break down the message?

Bill