Interesting and thoughtful article on moving to treatment free beekeeping

[tjc1]

A really good read with - it seems to me - an intelligent approach. Remove the two spaces after the colon to make the link operative-

https:  //static1.squarespace.com/static/56818659c21b86470317d96e/t/5900c8b5bf629a68d138598f/1493223607505/TreatmentFree_Oct2016.pdf

[Acebird]

Every time you requeen you start the process over.  You will never get to the finish line.  It ain't just the queen.  Almost half the genetic material in a hive comes from the queen and then there is the other half.  Just saying.

[little john]

Every time you requeen you start the process over.  You will never get to the finish line.  It ain't just the queen.  Almost half the genetic material in a hive comes from the queen and then there is the other half.  Just saying.

Not forgetting the possibility of epigenetic involvement as well ...
LJ

[sc-bee]

Every time you requeen you start the process over.  You will never get to the finish line.  It ain't just the queen.  Almost half the genetic material in a hive comes from the queen and then there is the other half.  Just saying.

I'm sure she has no idea what she is doing.... Seriously??? She is not just requeening... she is not killing her bees and requeening with better know stock.... Ummmm who is my money on....  her or well you know ......

[sc-bee]

No offense but do I put my money on this lady:


Meghan Milbrath, PhD, MPH
Education

PhD, Environmental Health Studies, University of Michigan 2012
MPH, International Health and Development, Tulane University 2004
BA, Biology, St. Olaf College
Current Professional Activities

Academic Specialist, Honey bees and pollinators extension and research, Michigan State University Department of Entomology
Coordinator of the Michigan Pollinator Initiative
Owner, Sand Hill Apiary
Memberships

Member, American Beekeeping Federation
Member, Entomological Society of America
Michigan Beekeepers Association
South East Michigan Beekeepers Association
Center of Michigan Beekeepers
Ann Arbor Backyard Beekeepers
Hobbies

I don't have any hobbies because I don't have any time, but I love all the work that I do.
I work at Michigan State University doing honey bee extension and research
I run my own beekeeping business (http://www.sandhillbees.org), where we run 200 hives for honey production and queen rearing.
I teach beekeeping
I write and read about bees, and spend any free time turning our 80 acres into the best pollinator habitat possible.
Pets

My husband and I raise hogs and chickens, and have 2 dogs - a lovely, well behaved Labrador and a border collie mix that happily terrorizes everyone.

Or an internet ACEBIRD.....

[moebees]

No offense but this lady:
Meghan Milbrath, PhD, MPH
Education

PhD, Environmental Health Studies, University of Michigan 2012
MPH, International Health and Development, Tulane University 2004
BA, Biology, St. Olaf College
Current Professional Activities

I haven't read the article yet so will comment on that after I have read it.  I do not use chemicals to treat my bees and am 100% in favor of the beekeeping world moving toward bees that can live and thrive in the presence of varroa.   However, I think sometimes the "treatment free" community does a disservice to itself and its cause by some of the people that go around promoting it because of some suspect ideas and information and credentials of these individuals. 

As I said I have not read the article but I am familiar with the author described above and would not list her credentials as being impressive in terms of bee research.  She has actually just begun doing research on bees and has a limited beekeeping background as well.  Her academic background has also not prepared her very well for the professional path she is on.  I say this being someone with a PhD in ruminant nutrition who spent most of my career in medical research so you may take it with a grain of salt.  I have also taught undergraduate biology majors and although some are excellent it was not my experience that that was the norm.  And the biology degree is the closest to anything that might be applicable to bees.  International Health Developement and Environmental health studies I don't give one confidence that she knows much about entomology are basic scientific research for the matter. 

I wish her well and she may have a stellar career in honey bee research.  I hope she does.  All I am saying is that she hasn't proven anything yet and so we will have to wait and see. 

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Dr. Moe: nutrition, an applicable field to everyday life and applicable to honey bees as well.  Impressive, Sir.

I have bee trying to determine the difference between high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) and honey on a molecular basis.  Clearly one can see, smell, taste the difference with the naked eye no less,  but on a molecular basis, I am having trouble discerning the two.  Not to confuse with corn syrup, but HFCS 52 I believe it?s called.

I hate to use scientific words for in public such as this forum but readers please forgive me this time.  With this in mind is a cis or trans structure the only difference?  Which I understand is a huge difference.  I am not considering common polluted Honey with pollens and all, just the molecules such as fructose and glucose.  Lil John, also others: input is appreciated.
Google honey molecule, then HFCS molecule.

Its probably something simple I am overlooking, I admit freely I have forgotten 99% of my chemistry.  Some time ago I trained pathologist, MD level in my career but the details do not matter this day.
Blessings

[little john]

moebees - extremely well expressed.  I looked-up this lady's background too, after reading that passionate (and rather 'girly') article, and came to exactly the same conclusion as yourself.  (although I don't think I would have expressed my opinion quite as well as you did)

If you are thinking about not managing varroa mites in your colonies as a way to keep bees, I urge you to open the colony while they are in the dying process. Look those suffering girls right in their compound eyes, and reflect on how you want to provide for the animals under your care. 

Not exactly the typical words of a scientist, thinks I - and duly found her bio at: https://www.vin.com/promo/Consultants/consultant433.htm.  She continues ...

It just doesn?t feel right to call yourself a beekeeper while letting your bees die a slow, preventable, death.

That's right, sweetheart - preventable - that's exactly why many of us treat, until such time as a more proven course of action is found.
LJ

[moebees]

I have bee trying to determine the difference between high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) and honey on a molecular basis.  Clearly one can see, smell, taste the difference with the naked eye no less,  but on a molecular basis, I am having trouble discerning the two.  Not to confuse with corn syrup, but HFCS 52 I believe it?s called.

I hate to use scientific words for in public such as this forum but readers please forgive me this time.  With this in mind is a cis or trans structure the only difference?  Which I understand is a huge difference.  I am not considering common polluted Honey with pollens and all, just the molecules such as fructose and glucose.  Lil John, also others: input is appreciated.
Google honey molecule, then HFCS molecule.

I don't know that there is a difference.   What makes you think there is?  Honey is about 50% fructose so if you are comparing to something like HFCS55 the difference is 5%.  Both are solutions so I would assume its isomeric forms would be similar between HFCS and honey.  I don't think the difference in smell and taste is from the sugar components.  Or maybe I am missing what you are getting at?

[Acebird]

I am not considering common polluted Honey with pollens and all, just the molecules such as fructose and glucose.

Well sure Van there is no difference between fructose and fructose and glucose and glucose.  How could they be different?  But I ask you is there any chemical difference between a Hershey's bar and an apple?  Just because they both have sugar doesn't mean they are the same.

[moebees]

moebees - extremely well expressed.  I looked-up this lady's background too, after reading that passionate (and rather 'girly') article, and came to exactly the same conclusion as yourself.  (although I don't think I would have expressed my opinion quite as well as you did)

If you are thinking about not managing varroa mites in your colonies as a way to keep bees, I urge you to open the colony while they are in the dying process. Look those suffering girls right in their compound eyes, and reflect on how you want to provide for the animals under your care. 

Not exactly the typical words of a scientist, thinks I - and duly found her bio at: https://www.vin.com/promo/Consultants/consultant433.htm.  She continues ...

It just doesn?t feel right to call yourself a beekeeper while letting your bees die a slow, preventable, death.

That's right, sweetheart - preventable - that's exactly why many of us treat, until such time as a more proven course of action is found.
LJ

After seeing your post, Little John, I thought I better go read the article.  It is less an article than a blog post I guess.  Its on squarespace but I couldn't find what it i linked to for context.  Is this her personal site or something linked to Michigan State?  She is in extension at MSU and this article seems like something written for extension purposes.  Anyway, I don't want to get into a detailed critique because I disagree with almost everything in it. Like I said before, I wish her luck but I don't agree with the approach.  I don't think it works.

[little john]

Hi Van - confession time - I know absolutely nothing about HFCS.  In the US it's cheap and freely available - over here we (as in General Public) never get to see the stuff.  If you wanted to buy HFCS in the UK, then it would need to be specially ordered and cost big bucks.  Bit like Golden-Rod - for you guys it's a weed, but for us it's a high-price plant sold in Garden Centres ...

There's a HFCS Wiki which might be of interest to you - seems that there are several 'grades' of HFCS.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-fructose_corn_syrup

What I do know about fructose itself, is that it's favoured by athletes, as fructose and glucose have completely different catabolic pathways, so essentially twice the amount of carbs can be taken-up by the body, without the restriction which a single pathway would impose in order to prevent overload - for as you know, insulin regulates glucose metabolism, but plays no part whatsoever in fructose metabolism.  Dunno if any of this stuff applies to bees though.

LJ

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Thanks Moe, Ace, Lil John,I will try to be more specific.  Yes I realize fructose is fructose regardless of source.  What confuses me is: I look at Honey: fructose, glucose some complex sugars, then I look at HFCS and see the exact same, the sugar molecules simple and complex that is.  Not talking about all the beautiful beneficial enzymes in Honey, the pollens, just the sugars appear to be the same and in same percentages.

I expected to see different ratios of sugars, different % complex sugars:  if I was to analyze the sugar content of honey and HFCS with a Spectrometer  (flame ionized infrared spectrometer) instrument(s) I could not differentiate, unless as I hoped one would say it is resolved by the structures cis and trans, simple as that, end of discussion....   note HFCS 40, the difference, a lot of starch molecules, so it is easy to distinguish from Honey.

This is getting a bit more complex than I had anticipated. I apologize for the buzz words.  Lil John, you are good with chemistry Sir,  am I making myself clear?  The diff???? Between Honey and HFCS???
Blessings

[sc-bee]

Yes LJ I thought girly... well she is a giiirrllll  and still I'll take any Phd over an ACEBIRD anyday    What I read is not supporting the "live and let die method' which is the same as Oliver promotes. Treat to avoid crash and contamination chose from the best.

I found the Seeley video Robo posting interesting in the fact he completely dismissed the small cell theory. And he also said the US will never reach varroa no treatment status unless the American Bee Industry completely colapses. Maybe I read too much in between the lines.

Yes bee blogs and opinions are a dime a doze and in some places more than a dozen for less that a dime What is an ACEBRID anyway... Just kidding man

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

There are numerous bonafide scientific articles conducted by various universities in various countries the past decade that dismiss varroa control by means of a small cell.  PubMed or google a search and see with your own eyes.

However there is a fella on this site, a regular, that claims sussessful control of varroa utilizing small cell.  Maybe it?s his unique environment, climate, terrain,  maybe his strain of bees, a combination of of things, or some other factor I am not aware of.  But I believe the fella.

With honey bees things are not always black and white, there are gray areas especially local climate.

I seem to remember scientists, doctors, not long ago treated stomach ulcers with: a lecture on stress, advocated drinking milk products with anti acids and avoided at almost all cost the use antibiotics.  Antibiotics were proven to upset the stomach, many bonafied articles.  The current research back their treatment methods. 

Of course now a days we know most stomach ulcers are caused by bacteria and antibiotics are the cure.
Blessings

[tjc1]

Wow, GUYS... "girly"?  "sweetheart"? Yikes - are y'all married? I must be of roughly the same generation as you (I'm 63), and as we should know by now, that's no excuse - my PhD wife would box your ears - in very ungirly-like fashion...! :)

I don't see much discussion on the merits of her propositions here - but lots of knocking of her credentials and 'tone' - hmm, dare I say that comes off as 'guyish'?

[eltalia]

"hmm, dare I say that comes off as 'guyish'? "

Not unless you wish to be misunderstood, taken literally
and so attract the (Thor)hammer of those who fail to
  read and understand .
I am yet to read the link... getting way more from the
comments, I reckon. Especially the text "between the lines"
between g00gle arch foes ;-)))

Bill
--
Pssst... I will read it, over the weekend. Got farmin' stuff to do.

[moebees]

Wow, GUYS... "girly"?  "sweetheart"? Yikes - are y'all married? I must be of roughly the same generation as you (I'm 63), and as we should know by now, that's no excuse - my PhD wife would box your ears - in very ungirly-like fashion...! :)

I don't see much discussion on the merits of her propositions here - but lots of knocking of her credentials and 'tone' - hmm, dare I say that comes off as 'guyish'?

My response about her credentials was prompted by the OP listing her credentials as evidence that the article was sound.  So I thought it was relevant to address her credentials. 

[sc-bee]

Wow, GUYS... "girly"?  "sweetheart"? Yikes - are y'all married? I must be of roughly the same generation as you (I'm 63), and as we should know by now, that's no excuse - my PhD wife would box your ears - in very ungirly-like fashion...! :)

I don't see much discussion on the merits of her propositions here - but lots of knocking of her credentials and 'tone' - hmm, dare I say that comes off as 'guyish'?

My response about her credentials was prompted by the OP listing her credentials as evidence that the article was sound.  So I thought it was relevant to address her credentials.

I don't know how sound they are in YOUR bee world, but there were a lot of acronyms and alphabets etc, but I thought the alphabets were more thought provoking and concrete than the first poster who dismissed the article 

[little john]

Wow, GUYS... "girly"?  "sweetheart"? Yikes - are y'all married? I must be of roughly the same generation as you (I'm 63), and as we should know by now, that's no excuse - my PhD wife would box your ears - in very ungirly-like fashion...! :)

I don't see much discussion on the merits of her propositions here - but lots of knocking of her credentials and 'tone' - hmm, dare I say that comes off as 'guyish'? 

When I said 'girly' - I didn't actually mean to be disparaging - it's simply that when I read selected sections of that article - it came across as being very 'pink and fluffy' and I knew immediately (without looking) that it was written by a girl.  Yes - a girl. Not a mature woman with substantial experience of life, but a girl.

'Sweetheart' WAS patronising, I agree - it was intended to be - because my words were being addressed to someone who apparently has scant experience of life outside of a university campus.  I have often addressed post-doctoral students (both male and female) in that way whenever I encountered inflated egos. 

To include one's academic qualifications when addressing an issue in an unrelated field is highly misleading and borderline dishonest - for by doing this you are presenting your own views as being those of someone with expertise within the subject area.  At least that is highly likely to be the assumption that many would automatically draw.

If I held a Ph.D. in Victorian Architecture, Sub-Atomic Physics or Ancient Greek Literature - should my own beekeeping opinions be awarded merit because of having studied within one of these subject areas ?  Certainly not.  So is Environmental Health really any different ?

I too, wish her every success in the future, as she learns more about the honey bee - but I would suggest that in the meanwhile she exercises due caution when promoting her own beekeeping agenda.
LJ