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Author Topic: building / wiring foundationless frames  (Read 5987 times)

Offline eltalia

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2018, 10:56:50 am »
@djgriggs

Much has been put, here now and previously elsewhere.
As with many other topics raised by new players the avenues
forward can be overwhelming.
Ask yourself this.. "how long in my Life am I going to undertake
to keep bees". When the answer is somewhere north of 5 years
you have plenty of opportunity to test any and all the paths
confusing you now.
Don't even contemplate a startup when it's _all_ the 'right' answers
you must have first. There arn't any.
Lucks to your bees.

Bill

Offline little john

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2018, 11:18:38 am »
When the answer is somewhere north of 5 years
you have plenty of opportunity to test any and all the paths
confusing you now.
Don't even contemplate a startup when it's _all_ the 'right' answers
you must have first. There arn't any.

That just but sums it up.

Suggest: try 2x frames with one method; 2x with another; 2x unsupported, and so on ...

Then evaluate which were most successful - and which YOU liked best (aka "suck it and see").

Well, that's one possible approach if you're still undecided ...
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline paus

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2018, 11:47:29 am »
I have started using skewers instead off wire.  I have had wire come loose from factory frames in the extraction process.  I can install either two or three  skewers a lot faster than I can install fishing line.  This brings up my question, are two skewers all that is needed to extract from deep frames?  I saw a picture of one of  Little John's frames with two skewers, and his frames are deeper than my Langstrop frames.  Two skewers would make installation almost twice as fast and would make a much easier frame to use in cut outs. Any one had experience with extraction using skewers.

Offline Acebird

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2018, 01:44:43 pm »

If I understand correctly on the use of the fishing line , it is okay if it stretches  a little because it is there for support and it is okay as long as it does not sag. Maybe I

am thinking to much into this . i was thinking that as the comb is built and it starts being built downward that it would end up putting pressure on the fishing line and then start to stretch the line,...

If the line were to sag, yes the comb would be built around it and it would support the comb in the vertical direction.  But if you tipped the frame 90 deg. then it wouldn't support it unless you had another line/wire in the middle and connected to the bottom bar.

You can go through the trouble of drawing out comb by just using the top bar.  Once they have completed a frame you trim the comb back so you can assemble the side bars and the bottom bar and they will attach it to the sides and bottom but this takes two seasons.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline moebees

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2018, 02:54:49 pm »
I have never used any support and although you have to be careful it isn't as bad as you might think.  Try ounce it is dark comb you don't need to be careful at all. Otherwise get in the habit of handling the comb like top bar guys do.  Top bar keepers handle comb all the time and most of the comb we have in a frame is more solid then that so I don't find it to be a problem. 
Bee-keeping is like raising Martians  - Isabella Rosselini

Offline sc-bee

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2018, 04:19:34 pm »
Current Options :

1. Continue to use the 20lb fishing line as tight as possible without eyelets
2. buy eyelets to use with line support original fishingline or spiderwire.
3 Do not use any Horizontal supporting wires and be extremely careful.

First of all I am pretty much a foundation guy. At times to open the next I have inserted an empty in a squeeze. With no support wire the Southern temps in the mid to upper 90's help you out with disaster... tilt or no tilt... just the pure weight....  catch my drift or should I say catch my drop :angry:
John 3:16

Offline sc-bee

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2018, 04:23:45 pm »
BTW - have you ever considered 'bobby pins' (whatever they are ...) - the FatBeeMan made a YouTube video about using these - they seem to work ok.
LJ

LJ--- Bobby pins at ya brother---

A bobby pin (also known as a kirby grip or hair grip in the United Kingdom) is a type of hairpin, usually of metal or plastic, used in coiffure to hold hair in place.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2018, 04:34:39 pm by sc-bee »
John 3:16

djgriggs

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2018, 10:59:50 pm »
Okay,, Here is where I am at tonight.. I spent some of the day with the kids at the park . Afterwords I put together 20 Medium Foundationless frames.. " At this point I can see why someone may want to use a JIG " any how.. These frames have a strip in the top and one at the bottom.. I can say some fit great others not so much so . After I got them all assembled I melted some beeswax. I have did not have it hot enough as by the time I got the brush from the melted wax to the frame it was dry, "@#%$$" I went to walmart got me a camping burner and then melted more wax. This is where things started going semi badly... Apparently I got the wax good and melted because when I dipped my brush " it started sizzling " Yep,, a little to hot. I let it cool a little bit and continued to wax the top strip..  ( Curious,, Do I need to wax both strip or just the top ? " Well any way the first few times after using the brush after the sizzle some of the brush came off in the wax on the strip. Hope that does not affect the bees. Oh yeah I am not going to wire the medium frames. I will start assembling the deeps tomorrow .. If someone would let me know if I need to wax both top and bottom strips or if it is just okay to wax the top..

Thank everyone once again, Looking forward to hearing more from everyone

Offline moebees

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2018, 11:03:29 pm »
Okay,, Here is where I am at tonight.. I spent some of the day with the kids at the park . Afterwords I put together 20 Medium Foundationless frames.. " At this point I can see why someone may want to use a JIG " any how.. These frames have a strip in the top and one at the bottom.. I can say some fit great others not so much so . After I got them all assembled I melted some beeswax. I have did not have it hot enough as by the time I got the brush from the melted wax to the frame it was dry, "@#%$$" I went to walmart got me a camping burner and then melted more wax. This is where things started going semi badly... Apparently I got the wax good and melted because when I dipped my brush " it started sizzling " Yep,, a little to hot. I let it cool a little bit and continued to wax the top strip..  ( Curious,, Do I need to wax both strip or just the top ? " Well any way the first few times after using the brush after the sizzle some of the brush came off in the wax on the strip. Hope that does not affect the bees. Oh yeah I am not going to wire the medium frames. I will start assembling the deeps tomorrow .. If someone would let me know if I need to wax both top and bottom strips or if it is just okay to wax the top..

Thank everyone once again, Looking forward to hearing more from everyone

Just the top.  And you don't need to melt wax to apply it.  Rubbing solid wax on the wood creates enough friction to get the wax to adhere.
Bee-keeping is like raising Martians  - Isabella Rosselini

djgriggs

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2018, 01:12:17 am »
:) That would have been some good information to have before hand  :shocked: :wink: Boy did it leave a mess .. oh well , live and learn....
Actually I like the way most of the boards turned out.. melting might be the way I want to go... Still not sure about the fishing line / wiring.

Offline cao

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2018, 11:02:34 am »
I agree that the top is only where the wax is needed.  I melt my wax in an old crock pot that is reserved only for wax(since once used you won't be able to get all the wax cleaned off).  I fill it about 3/4 full of water then add wax.  It takes a couple hours to get it warm enough to melt the wax but I can usually find stuff to do while waiting.  When finished I turn it off and walk away.  Once cooled the extra wax comes out easily. 

When using a paint brush, I've rigged a hook above the crock pot that holds the tip of the brush in the melted wax.  This keeps the brush with wax warm enough that it won't cool before I get it to the frames.


djgriggs

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2018, 02:44:14 pm »
  I melt my wax in an old crock pot that is reserved only for wax(since once used you won't be able to get all the wax cleaned off).  I fill it about 3/4 full of water then add wax.

Am I correct in understanding that you mix water with your wax ???? " I just melted the wax and brushed it on. " Should I have mixed water in with the melted wax ? " Also I am considering using fishing line for support on the deep foundationless frames, should I even use fishing line / wire for support on the deep frames ?? .. Do these support lines need to be waxed.

Thank you

Offline Acebird

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2018, 04:06:32 pm »
Water doesn't mix with wax it just keeps it from overheating.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

djgriggs

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2018, 05:37:12 pm »
Oh, Okay thanks , I did not think it mixed but hey I dont know everything :),,,,

Can someone tell me..

I am getting ready to wire my foundationless deep frames. I was originally going to use this diagram for support
on running my fishing line.


However I have only seen the following being done for support. Am I going to far ? , should I stick just to the Horizonal support ?

Once this is done I will only have one last to do and that is to build the bee stand. Please send my all your thoughts, knowledge, opinions etc . All is welcome,,,,, woops it looks like I got the images backwards.. " I am only seeing the horizonal support " I had the idea of doing the 2nd image the horizontal with the X support.. Please tell me which would be best and why and or the preferred way.  Thank you

Offline cao

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2018, 06:29:38 pm »
The water with wax is there mainly to make it easier to clean up afterward.  The wax floats so there is no wax stuck in the bottom of the pot.  Also with a half inch melted wax on top of the water you can dip your starter strip or plastic foundation.  As it goes through the wax, the wax sticks to your starter strip.  The water doesn't stick to the wax.  It is mainly there to give you the extra depth for dipping without using all wax.

Water doesn't mix with wax it just keeps it from overheating.
And yes, even with the water at a slow boil, the wax is just fine.


The deep frames that I have wired had only two horizontal wires.  One would work also.  Any more is just overkill to me.  I think it is more of what you want/like than what is best for the bees.



djgriggs

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2018, 09:43:06 pm »
Okay,, I am done, I have completed all deep and medium foundationless frames.. I did not wire any support for the mediums as at this time I am not for sure it will be needed. I have attached a couple of pictures of the way I ran the fishing line for support for some of the deeps. I did not do this to all of them I chose to go with the original layout for the wiring support, as I did not see much more support for the idea that I had. Now the only thing left is to either build two stands or buy....
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 01:07:14 pm by djgriggs »

Offline hrtull

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2018, 03:18:23 pm »
I used thin wire and small  pop rivets. Insert pop rivet in appropriate size hole leaving a gap large enough to make a few wire wraps around the head then push rivet in all the way and cycle the rivet gun . Purchased white ceiling grid rivets at lowes for little expense. Worked great. Also did the 2 vertical equally spaced BBQ skews with great results.

Offline eltalia

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2018, 04:46:48 pm »

"I do not want to spend more money if I do not have to ...."

"I do appreciate everyones thoughts and input here.. I do not want anyone to think otherwise
 I am just stubborn at times and try to make sure I have the complete picture."

Weeeeell.. being stubborn *and* frugal I would wager you're in for a torrid
couple of years in bees, if you get past one season - and that is being as
honest as I strive to be.
I am not reading which frame size you are using but assuming the sketch is
roughly to scale it is Robo's option which may work out for you in supers
using full depth. A support mesh within the basket solves extraction
hazards, mostly.
For broodchambers in full depth no wiring is needed for a backyard
operation - learn to handle the combs, there are any number of tutes on
doing this successfully.

Mind how you go and Lucks to the bees.

Bill

Offline Robo

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2018, 05:07:14 pm »
For broodchambers in full depth no wiring is needed for a backyard
operation - learn to handle the combs, there are any number of tutes on
doing this successfully.

This is a very good point for new beekeepers who can still be trained.  Old guys like me who have been flipping frames over during inspections for 40 years are hard to change.  One simple wire has saved my butt numerous times now :cool:
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison



djgriggs

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Re: building / wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2018, 05:25:08 pm »

"I do not want to spend more money if I do not have to ...."

"I do appreciate everyones thoughts and input here.. I do not want anyone to think otherwise
 I am just stubborn at times and try to make sure I have the complete picture."

Weeeeell.. being stubborn *and* frugal I would wager you're in for a torrid
couple of years in bees, if you get past one season - and that is being as
honest as I strive to be.
I am not reading which frame size you are using but assuming the sketch is
roughly to scale it is Robo's option which may work out for you in supers
using full depth. A support mesh within the basket solves extraction
hazards, mostly.
For broodchambers in full depth no wiring is needed for a backyard
operation - learn to handle the combs, there are any number of tutes on
doing this successfully.

Mind how you go and Lucks to the bees.

Bill



Here is what I did , 20 foundationless frames ( deeps ) used 20lb fishing line for supports. See the attachment above to see how I chose to do some of them others are just horizontally wired , Did not see much extra support in the way I was doing it. I also have 20 foundationless Mediums for Supers, I did not wire these.  I was going to go no wire for the deeps but I was thinking that sense I literally am only going by what I have read to care for the bees and I know to be careful " better safe than sorry " :) ... My issue is not really spending money for something that I will enjoy it is just spending money when not needed. I am really anxious to get my bees this month.. I am however a little worried that I will be getting them late.. Mid / late April.... Any thoughts on getting the bees within that time frame ?