Low on stores - what about your?

[GSF]

We have folks in our bee club from about 4 different counties. A lot of us have lost a hive or three due to starving out - which is stupid. However we are being caught from the blindside on this and are pretty much saying the same thing. In my case what I didn't do was rob them blind last fall, what I did do and have been doing is feeding them. I went in one of my hives yesterday evening. I did this because this one and another one swarmed and returned back to their hive. So while I'm in there I notice a hive packed with bees and only  a little bit of stores in the top super, little bit as in collectively two or three medium frames. Zero in the bottom deep and zero in the middle medium (all 8f).

This is a first for me, the first being just how quickly they can run out of stores. Last year we got around 84 inches of rain. I lost a garden for the first time in my life due to too much water. The moisture content of my honey was above the fermenting marker. In addition our spring started off fast and furious then got hit with lows in the 20s several times. With the moisture content being high would that degrade the honey so that they had to eat more? I'm thinking fried chicken vs chicken soup. I'm in central Alabama, is anyone else experiencing this?

[moebees]

T With the moisture content being high would that degrade the honey so that they had to eat more? I'm thinking fried chicken vs chicken soup. I'm in central Alabama, is anyone else experiencing this?

Your analogy to chicken soup implies that you are thinking dilution factor but your honey would have to be really off to have much impact.  Nectar compared to honey would have a big impact.  What was the moisture content of the honey?  If there was allot of fermentation you could lose allot of sugar content that way.  But I am guessing just the lengthy cold and delayed blooms is probably the biggest part of the explanation.

[texanbelchers]

Last year I had issues with low stores which seemed to lead to EFB symptoms.  It caught me completely by surprise.  This year I've been feeding them since early February and they are still burning through everything.  Lots of pollen, little nectar.

[little john]

Over on: https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=50986.0  I was describing the 'weather bomb' which brought Siberian conditions to Britain after an exceptionally mild winter.  Those conditions lasted for around 10-12 days, and although I had small amounts of fondant on the Crown Boards (inner covers) of all hives, my main concern was that it might have been too cold for them to reach it.  But - not to worry - all survived, and I was able to get more fondant on (directly onto the top bars) just in time for a second weather bomb which was fortunately of much shorter duration than the first.  Since then the temperatures have improved a tad, but it's still b. cold with heavy overnight frosts.

The fondant jars are still in place, with many being scoffed, and I've added some tiny jars of 2:1 syrup (150ml - 1/4 pint) as well, which are refilled every 3 days - just enough to keep 'em ticking over.  Some colonies are sucking that syrup down, others are ignoring it.  With the way the weather is right now, I can see me keeping this up for another two to three weeks at least.

So - a similar story over here - it's been a very strange winter ...
LJ

[bwallace23350]

I did not have a low supply problem this year but then again last year I took no honey so maybe that had something to do with it.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

GSF{I'm thinking fried chicken vs chicken soup.}. I believe you analogy is soup degrades much faster than fried chicken which is very correct.  Bacteria need at least 18% moisture to replicate.

The problem with fermented honey is production of vinegar, by yeast as a biproduct.  Bees hate vinegar.  I use sugar with vinegar in my wasp traps and as long as the vinegar is present, honey bees will not get near the sugar solution, but the wasp don?t mind vinegar so the traps are specific for only wasp.

So is vinegar toxic to honey bees or is it the smell of vinegar that the bees hate???  I don?t know that answer.  But I do know the more the moisture the more microbes and moisture levels below 18% is inhibitory to microbes.

If your honey smells of vinegar, remove it from the hive, the bees will love for this.
GSF, not sure if I answered your question but you have info for thought.
Blessings

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

{So - a similar story over here - it's been a very strange winter ...
LJ}. Glad your bees did OK, LJ.

Yep, a strange year indeed.  I lost several hives to freeze outs.  Honey on the very frames as the frozen bees.  Some hives had very small clusters which may have precipitated due to a severe dearth last Fall and Winter followed by sub zero temps which is rare in this neck of the woods.

I fed last Fall so all my hives have/had good stores.  Some winter dead outs had 30- 40 pounds of Honey last January.  My small chest freezer was filled with capped honey from January dead outs.

GSF, no garden due to rain, unheard of in the south on GARDEN (elevated) soil.  Sorry Buddy.
Blessings

[Acebird]

The problem with fermented honey is production of vinegar, by yeast as a biproduct. 

I had intended to bring a sample of my honey that started to ferment to the beefest but I forgot it at my brothers house in Myrtle Beach.  I eat this honey regularly and do not detect vinegar.  And then there are all of us that make mead which really ferments.  I can assure you I would not drink it if it tasted or smelled like vinegar.  I am not saying you are wrong but maybe conditions might have to be right for this to happen?

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Yes. Ace you are correct, as usual: depending on the strain of yeast one can have a beautiful honey beer, mead or vinegar as dreaded by wine, beer makers.  While we are on the subject of different kinds of microbes, milk bacteria will eventually sour milk converting the sugars to Latic acid.  To the opposite extreme, inhibit oxygen, usually by canning, add the bacteria responsible for blubonic plauge, Black Death, Black Plague, a bacterium called Yersenia pestis (sp) and you will have some of the most toxic chemical known to man: botulism.  Once ounce is enough to wipe out the entire planet of mankind: every man woman and child.  This microbe, yersenia, cannot utilize Honey as a food source so no worries.

Point is the type of microbe, as Ace points out, makes all the difference in the world.  Thank you Ace for the correction.
Blessings

[moebees]

Yes. Ace you are correct, as usual: depending on the strain of yeast one can have a beautiful honey beer, mead or vinegar as dreaded by wine, beer makers.  While we are on the subject of different kinds of microbes, milk bacteria will eventually sour milk converting the sugars to Latic acid.  To the opposite extreme, inhibit oxygen, usually by canning, add the bacteria responsible for blubonic plauge, Black Death, Black Plague, a bacterium called Yersenia pestis (sp) and you will have some of the most toxic chemical known to man: botulism.  Once ounce is enough to wipe out the entire planet of mankind: every man woman and child.  This microbe, yersenia, cannot utilize Honey as a food source so no worries.

Point is the type of microbe, as Ace points out, makes all the difference in the world.  Thank you Ace for the correction.
Blessings

You seem to be mixing up several things here.  Yersenia pestis is the bacterium that produces plague.  Botulinum toxin is produced by Clostridium botulinum.  The reason it is not a problem in honey is that honey is not canned.  C. botulinum is an obligate anaerobe and does not grow in the presence of oxygen.  That is why it is a problem in improperly processed canned foods.

[Acebird]

Hey I learned something.  So botulinum can only occur in can goods.  I thought it occurred in all foods.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

It must be deprived of free oxygen.

[moebees]

Hey I learned something.  So botulinum can only occur in can goods.  I thought it occurred in all foods.

I would not say that it can only occur in canned goods but it is the most common place for it to occur because of the lack of oxygen.  Its possible to get it in wounds and other situations that are deprived of oxygen but it is rare other than canned goods to have an oxygen free environment.  So the key to canning is to reach high enough temperature and pressure for sufficient time to kill the spores (pressure cooking) or temperature and time and acidic foods (water bath canning).  So theoretically it could occur in any food but it must be devoid of oxygen and that doesn't happen much except canned goods.

[GSF]

I haven't detected a vinegar smell in any of the hives. I have a recipe that I feed and it calls for one tablespoon of organic vinegar per quart of sugar.

Interesting conversation about botulism. But we are warned (although I've never seen or heard of it) about not giving honey to infants due to infant botulism being in honey.

[tjc1]

To the question of stores at this point generally - my two hives (both three 10-frame mediums (equipment weight ca 45 lbs), went into the winter at 112 and 96 lbs respectively. They are now at 76 and 74 lbs, so each have about 30 lbs of honey+bees.