The "Bee-Space"

[little john]

I've just returned from visiting the BeeSource forum, where I stuck my oar in regarding a debate regarding The Bee-Space, which became somewhat confused at times.  I thought this might be of interest here, so here are my latest contributions, starting with this reply:

According to Cushman, the largest bee space is created in the brood area (9mm according to his writings).

That's right. The 'beespace' between brood combs isn't always uniform - i.e. parallel.  The bees draw-out the cells towards the top of the comb (to reduce the gap there), and often around the sides too.  The space which results can best be visualised by placing two dinner-plates or saucers together, rim-to-rim - that's roughly the shape of the resulting gallery between the two brood combs - resulting in a "Bee-Space" of around 9 mm (providing a space for two bees to work back-to-back) within the central area, and much less (space for one bee to pass) around the periphery - specifically around the top.  Pretty good way of controlling the brood-nest environment ...

But this isn't always clearly seen, so I guess some sub-species are more prone to doing this, than others.
 LJ


It was while writing the previous post that I spotted a possible source of confusion.  What is commonly called "Bee Space" is only indirectly related to the actual size of bees. It's easier to describe this in millimetres, so bear with me ...

I make my own Queen Excluders with a wire spacing of 4.16mm, which my bees can wriggle though fairly easily - but a 4.5mm spacing would remove any need to wriggle - and so 4.5mm could therefore be considered as being one 'bee-space'.  9mm (near enough to 3/8") is therefore two of these 'bee-spaces'.

So - what is being described in the literature as "Bee Space" is simply an attempt to describe a spacing within which bees will neither draw comb, nor attempt to seal with propolis.  The dimensions of "Bee Space" will indeed vary a little according to the size of the bees it relates to - BUT - the expression "Bee Space" (as used in the literature) is simply being used there as a generalised descriptor.

A problem thus arises when the terms 'A' or 'One' precedes the term "Bee Space", as in 'A bee-space' or 'One bee-space' (or 'Two bee-spaces').  Once a person starts adding numbers to it, a different understanding of the term may then be intended, with focus being made upon the number of bees which can fit within (what has become known as) "Bee Space" - such that "Bee Space" can often provide space for two bees ... i.e. "Bee Space" can equal two bee-spaces.

Confused ?  Don't blame me ...
LJ

Does anyone here have difficulty following the above ?  I ask, as sometimes I find difficultly conveying ideas in words.
Ta.
LJ

[BeeMaster2]

Good info LJ.
Makes sense. Around the brood nest there is usually pollen bread and then open honey and then capped honey. The capped honey cells are usually deeper than the brood cells.
Jim

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Lil John, good morning. Step up to Beemaster and stay here.  Your to young to be hanging around that ol advertising beesource, a place of hypocrites I say.  You will get into trouble over there.  The light is brightest on Beemaster. :)
Blessings

[eltalia]

@LJ
I'll go check out the BS.com discussion - as most will I reckon - so for the moment here
is my "off the cuff" take, so far.
Should BS.com prove itself as Van suggests then heed the words of Capn' Titus Oates
on his last Antarctic frolic, to wit .....
........... "I am just going outside and may be some time."


"But this isn't always clearly seen, so I guess some sub-species are more prone to doing
this, than others."

And why some beekeepers have more work to do on inspections if they choose
to clear burrcomb and propolis in woodwork. Choice of subspecies being
a personal thing.
One observation from the Bro' Adam files is the notable lack of burrcomb.
Colonies featured were as clean as mine are ! :-)))


"the expression "Bee Space" (as used in the literature) is simply being used there as a generalised
descriptor."

As I use it, yes. The beeways created are set to accomodate whom they wish
passing by... drones and queens included.
My way is to help them out in reducing the need to build those highways for bees
outside of the frame face.
For example, the "beespace" at the bottomboard? 9mm
The beespace above a QX? 4.5mm
The beespace between my migratory lid and the topbars? around 6mm+/-2mm
Everybody gets a go on the bottomboard, doubles and mixed-doubles included.
Above a QX the drones and queens have to go the long way around.


Bill

[little john]

G'morning Van,
Yep- I stray over to BeeSource every now and then, just for a look-see - but can't help myself when I see guys getting bogged-down on some topic or other.

I also pop-in to a certain British Beekeeping site, whenever I've forgotten the reasons why I 'abandoned ship' a good while ago - but it only takes ten minutes of reading testosterone-fuelled acrimonious arguments to remind me ... and then I come back home - over to Beemaster.
This has to be the best beekeeping forum on The Web for mutual respect and such like amongst the membership ...

Long may this continue.
LJ

[little john]

. duplicate post (somehow) - sorry about that.

[little john]

The beeways created are set to accomodate whom they wish passing by... drones and queens included.

Yes - I think 'Accommodation Space' or 'Tolerance Space' would have been a better choice of term, rather than Bee Space, as 'The Bee Space' varies in it's dimension around the hive (as you say).

But I guess we're stuck with that term now - and the confusion which goes with it.
LJ

[eltalia]

The beeways created are set to accomodate whom they wish passing by... drones and queens included.

Yes - I think 'Accommodation Space' or 'Tolerance Space' would have been a better choice of term, rather
 than Bee Space, as 'The Bee Space' varies in it's dimension around the hive (as you say).

But I guess we're stuck with that term now - and the confusion which goes with it.
LJ

[nodding]
With the numbers reading all online forums intermingled amongst
club/association members, and the whole of the beekeeping world
outside of the Internet, I'd offer the word usage horse has bolted...
.... long ago.
One can only hope the beekeeper is thinking in Bee and not Human :-))

I cannot know what systems exist everywhere for bus transit amongst
motor vehicles but here(.AU) those zones are known as "Clearway".
These zones are designed to accomodate - or not - both bus and
automobile in maintaining safe separation.
To my mind it is when building/designing colony infrastructure to keep
in mind whatever space the subspecies (chosen) requires to move within
in sync, considering also air pathways and pest hidey-holes. The latter
being prime factors bees use to build burrcomb and propolis, or not.
Building those Clearways into the hive body yourself creates an automatic
"by default" for the bees, and so will reduce their workload and the
beekeeper's workload in moving components and clearing away excessive
debri.
That Buckfast Co. video shows very well both BA's colonies and his protege's
colonies exhibiting little making of Clearways by the bees. Given BA's
experience/attention I would wager Man had a lot to do with making that
colony feature happen. The bees being content with what was supplied them
as architecture... or as we know it "beespace".

One classic example of mistake is found in using inner covers and migratory
lids where the cover has a penetration for a feeder.
The bees fill the lid cavity with honeycomb and cap it. Some argue this is a
 good thing as it tells you the super below requires extracting and also
provides a buffer during a flow where the extraction cannot be done immediately.
I would argue the efficiency of such a belief as a detrimental outcome for the bees.
Often it can be seen there is honeycomb in the lid yet outside frames in the super
below are not capped or indeed even drawn, sometimes.
Mine own migratory - only style I use -  are packed with polystyrene/urathane, the
 inner being a fixed in place lid liner, usually of polycarb  material to persuade no
burrcomb/propolis building where beespace can vary because of my carpentry
skills, lack of. As management I keep a watch on topmost super frames, moving
those about to persuade an even draw, fill and cap

Bill

[Acebird]

This has to be the best beekeeping forum on The Web for mutual respect and such like amongst the membership ...

It sure is LJ.

There are slow times in beekeeping and this would be one of them.  That causes forum members to argue the difference between a nickel and five cents.  My definition of "bee space" is the distance between comb and any other obstruction.  A "bee space" can be the measurement of two bee widths but not two "bee spaces".  As with all things natural variations can occur.

[tjc1]

There are slow times in beekeeping and this would be one of them.  That causes forum members to argue the difference between a nickel and five cents. 
[/quote]

I got a good laugh out of that one, Brian! 

[Michael Bush]

Langstroth coined the term "bee-space".  He was describing a gap between two fixtures in a beehive that the bees will leave open and not attach it with comb or fill it with propolis.  He defined it as between 1/4" and 3/8" in other words 5/16" +- 1/16".

From Langstroth on the Hive and the Honey Bee 1889 edition page 140:

"...in which the combs are attached to movable frames so suspended in the hives as to touch neither the top, bottom, nor sides; leaving, between the frames and the hive walls, a space of from one-fourth to three-eights of an inch, called bee-space."

There are other spaces that differ from this such as the space at the very bottom of the hive or the space between combs, but the purpose of the concept was to define how close two pieces of furnishings in the bee hive should be to prevent filling with comb or propolis. i.e. the gap between frames and the wall or the top bar of the frame and the bottom bar above it.