Winter Brood Triggers

[Bush_84]

A separate topic got me thinking on this subject. I keep bees in a pitch black shed. Last year I had a large hive come out of my shed in March with drones and brood. No light. No incoming pollen or nectar. I guess my understanding was that this was dictated by multiple factors. Race, sunlight, pollen/nectar. The only two factors that I figure would be influencing a hive in this situation would be heat, race, strength of the hive, and genetics of the queen. These were Italians. It was a huge hive. When I took it out in March it filled two 8 frame deeps and partially filled a third.

So anybody have any thoughts on this?

[Acebird]

You mean why was the hive so big?  The hive obviously had the necessary stores to raise a lot of brood.  Italians build up fast consuming their stores in a gamble that there will be a flow before they run out.  They typically starve when they are wrong.

[Michael Bush]

There were a lot of theories back in the late 1800s in the bee journals of the day when discussing "cellaring".  One was that you remove all pollen (bee bread) from the colony before cellaring them.  The other issue is light.  Having set up many darkrooms in my life, I have to say "complete darkness" is very difficult to come by.  Also, if you check on them you need "true" red light in order to not set off a reaction in the bees.  I used to be able to buy those at the local photo shop, but I'm not sure where to find them now.  I haven't looked lately.

[Bush_84]

You mean why was the hive so big?  The hive obviously had the necessary stores to raise a lot of brood.  Italians build up fast consuming their stores in a gamble that there will be a flow before they run out.  They typically starve when they are wrong.

But what triggered them to raise brood?  Is it just because they are Italians and they will likely raise brood for most of the winter?

[Acebird]

I used to be able to buy those at the local photo shop, but I'm not sure where to find them now.

Might be in the same place but more expensive LED's.

[Acebird]

Is it just because they are Italians and they will likely raise brood for most of the winter?

No it is not most of the winter.  For my area it is right about now.
We are in our dreary winter season now where it snows every day with mostly grey skies.  When the sun does come out it melts the snow and ice off the pavement even though it is 3 or 4 degrees below freezing.  Car interior heats up from the green house effect.  Come nightfall the temperatures drop like a rock.  Now for my hives in the back yard I am sure they can tell where they are in the calendar season.  For your hives in a shed with outside heat sources I have no idea what their cues are to raise brood.  Maybe it is a magnetic field like with birds.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Bush-84 your post is interesting.  I guessed (my idea) the increasing light triggered brood but your observation cast shadow on that idea. 

There are many unknowns of honey bees:  who makes the decision to swarm, the queen, a bee council, elders?
Who decides to go and who decides to stay when swarming, is it an individual decision?
Do they realize they die if the sting a person?
Is a bee a single individual or part of a super organism?

We know bees can learn from bonafide lab test using color to direct to food.

I have seen many a bee, weakened, leave the hive on what appears to me to be a susicide walk.  Do these bees realize they are no longer fit to serve the hive and leave without knowing the consequences?

We know the nerves in a bees brain have 10 times more connections as our own neurons.  We know they detect and navigate by magnetic fields, a built in GPS,,,,,, each bee with 5 eyes that include ultraviolet, night vision.  We know pheromones play a large part in the life of honey bees but only understand a few.

And the biggest puzzling question of all: are bee conscious: or are they aware of self or just insects reacting to impulse and pheromones.

Makes one think, there are a lot of simple questions that we just do not know the answer.
Blessings

[Dallasbeek]

Man, I have a hard enough time trying to figure out what my wife means when she says something to me.  Trying to understand what bees "think" is way beyond my pay grade.  I don't even try.

[Acebird]

There are many unknowns of honey bees:  who makes the decision to swarm, the queen, a bee council, elders?
Who decides to go and who decides to stay when swarming, is it an individual decision?
Do they realize they die if the sting a person?
Is a bee a single individual or part of a super organism?

The queen makes no decisions except to fight for her life when fighting with another queen.
Who decides to stay or go is an unknown to me.
Hmm does a drone know he is going to die after a one night fling?
The colony is a super organism and every single bee is part of it.  The whole question is can a bee think or is it just programmed?

[Acebird]

Man, I have a hard enough time trying to figure out what my wife means when she says something to me.

Oh I have figured this out.  It means the opposite of what I think and if I should agree with her I am still wrong.  The schooling didn't come easy.

[BeeMaster2]

There are many unknowns of honey bees:  who makes the decision to swarm, the queen, a bee council, elders?
Who decides to go and who decides to stay when swarming, is it an individual decision?
Do they realize they die if the sting a person?
Is a bee a single individual or part of a super organism?

The queen makes no decisions except to fight for her life when fighting with another queen.
Who decides to stay or go is an unknown to me.
Hmm does a drone know he is going to die after a one night fling?
The colony is a super organism and every single bee is part of it.  The whole question is can a bee think or is it just programmed?

The scout bees, which are the older bees make the decisions to swarm and abscond and they make the decisions as to where they are going.
Jim

[eltalia]

"Is a bee a single individual or part of a super organism?"

There are many like scenarios to quote from the organism's behavior.
Let's  take a look at just one, as food for thought.
That bee writhing on the ground with it's father is doing so as an
individual, the beginnings of which founded in duty, that duty evolving
from the program the whole of tbe organism is employed at in survival
of the colony.
Too easy ;-)

Bill

[eltalia]

The scout bees, which are the older bees make the decisions to swarm and abscond and they
make the decisions as to where they are going.
Jim

Some have studied swarm behavior in detail and published papers
on same. Taking some value from that - particularly the selection by
grid location - and anecdotal from proven efficient swarm catchers,
together with my own experience I would offer the scout bees are
minions. Just as scouts in foraging are the lead, not the prime couriers.
There is also evidence in swarm preparation within the colony that
points away from scouts being older bees making decisions.

Bill

[jalentour]

bush 84,
I believe I read you heat your shed to 40 or so.  The heat and food supply may be a factor in winter brood growth in your hives.
Having said that, I have noticed in my hives profound differences in population when they "emerge" in the spring.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Man, I have a hard enough time trying to figure out what my wife means when she says something to me.

Oh I have figured this out.  It means the opposite of what I think and if I should agree with her I am still wrong.  The schooling didn't come easy.

Ace you are halarious. :) I enjoy the humor.
Blessings

[Dallasbeek]

Eltalia,  I would recommend you read Thomas Seeley's book, Honeybee Democracy for a really good read and authoritative research on the matter of swarms and selection of new hive location.  He says the bees arrive at the decision by consensus.

[eltalia]

Eltalia,  I would recommend you read Thomas Seeley's book, Honeybee Democracy for a really good
read and authoritative research on the matter of swarms and selection of new hive location. 
He says the bees arrive at the decision by consensus.

Yep DB it is Tom's work on sorting grid I referred to. The concenus thing is
just how the organism operates in my view, allbeit often in groups and not
a sole governing "voice". One group wants to supercede, another group
does not, QC(s) gets torn down. One group says we can beat the crap outa
these little black devils intruding, another group decides to run for the hills!

Meanwhile we watch on and wonder, stretching for answers to how to force
them to do universally what we want them to do. Some days it all goes to
pot in bees showing us the finger :-D

Bill

[Bush_84]

bush 84,
I believe I read you heat your shed to 40 or so.  The heat and food supply may be a factor in winter brood growth in your hives.
Having said that, I have noticed in my hives profound differences in population when they "emerge" in the spring.

Ya this singular example has not been universal. I just noticed this one hive build up with what I perceived to be a lack of triggering factors. So I was curious. I still suspect that this is more likely related to the strength of the hive and their race.

[beepro]

I say the lengthening of the daylight hours of the early Spring time or the shortening of the daylight hours during
the winter time that will trigger them into either expansion mode or contraction mode.  Lights also triggered many
plants to grow and bloom too.   Without the artificial light my red passion fruit plant will never send off new shoots.

[Bush_84]

I say the lengthening of the daylight hours of the early Spring time or the shortening of the daylight hours during
the winter time that will trigger them into either expansion mode or contraction mode.  Lights also triggered many
plants to grow and bloom too.   Without the artificial light my red passion fruit plant will never send off new shoots.

My intrigue however is due to the fact that these hives were kept in the dark. No light trigger.