Cold Weather BeeKeeping

[Acebird]

Once you get past that it?s just a matter of having a shed to use, proper insulation, heating, and ventilation.

If there are not enough hives to heat the shed then I suspect the ventilating requirements might be low also.  Do you make any attempt to measure the RH in the shed?  If you are heating you want to keep the ventilation down to a minimum otherwise you are shoveling sand against the tide.

[Bush_84]

I?d maybe counter that you are the one who doesn?t get it. I keep bees in the ?north? and indoors in winter and I?m not sure you are demonstrating an understanding of what that means. I have kept bees in a shed without Ian?s YouTube channel for four years and have only discovered what he has to say on the subject this winter.  Sure it?s not 20 years of experience but this is the first winter I?ve had losses in my shed, although they were rough losses. So I?ve done alright. I?ve just never understood any of your posts due to your meandering style of writing.

Again I cannot speak of canola from experience but only what I?ve read of it. Ian himself says that bees require water to use canola honey and that they will starve if not given access to water. That is the basis of his desire to increase humidity in his shed, although this topic wasn?t recent.

Where I think we differ is the environment outside vs the environment inside the hive. I am not controlling the temperature inside the cluster but rather reducing the amount of stress and stores consumed inside the cluster. This is done by controlling the temperature outside the hive. Ian heats his shed with the heat given off by over a thousand hives stacked high. I heat my shed electrically. When it gets cold the bees tighten down their cluster and work harder to heat the cluster. This work, I believe, takes a physical toll on the bees as well as consumes honey.  More work=more honey consumption. When I kept bees outside my biggest issue was bees starving with honey overhead. Inevitably the weak would freeze in December and the strong would starve in March. As winter wore on a strong hive would dwindle throughout the winter. When March came around we generally get a week of crappy weather. Small cluster plus prolonged cold leads to starvation with honey overhead. I can avoid both of these issues by controlling the temperature of the environment outside the cluster. It has been shown that 35-45 f is the best temperature for bees. Warmer than that and they break cluster. Colder than that and they consume more honey/work harder.

I would say most people shouldn?t keep bees indoors in winter. I?ve read a lot of topics from people south of me who are thinking about it, but is totally unnecessary. I would say that in my area you cannot achieve the same outcome without a shed. Sure the bees can still maintain their cluster, but at what cost when it?s -30 f with a windchill of -60 f? 

@Bush_84 wrote in part;
"I'm not going to lie I have a hard time deciphering what you are trying to get across. "

errr...fair enough, no point to expanding then, hey?
Take this with you as a simple fact... one has to know first
to recognise another who does know how it works.
Ian knows, I saw this in his earliest postings in a 2017 read
of beesourcedotcom. So... on the topic of environmental controls
- the science -  within a hive body...?...I suggest you consult with
him. From your writings you might not "get it" at first pass but
clearly you can dechiper his 'speak'.

"Canola honey turns into a rock and requires water to use."

Beyond the extents of energy spent in consuming stores the solid
state of stores is irrelevent.
Ian's "fancy shed" is designed to optimise those levels of energy,
yet no "fancy shed" is required for the backyard beekeeper to achieve
like levels/extents of energy in each individual colony within a
small(er) apiary.
When it is boiled down Ian's setup is a stable environment minus bees
to control the conditions. Each colony has that job on it's own, which
is as it should be.
Nice to have but not necessary in an economy of scale, despite my own
applause for your efforts to build a wintering shed.

Bill

[Bush_84]

In its current state no. I am planning on doing so in my new setup. I run my fan three times a day. I could probably get away with doing so less, but I?ve done ok at this rate. I also don?t have any measurement to tell me to increase or decrease ventilation. Rh would be one way. Getting a carbon dioxide monitor would be another. They would both require me being present in the shed to read I believe. Right now I can monitor my sheds temp from inside my house.

Once you get past that it?s just a matter of having a shed to use, proper insulation, heating, and ventilation.

If there are not enough hives to heat the shed then I suspect the ventilating requirements might be low also.  Do you make any attempt to measure the RH in the shed?  If you are heating you want to keep the ventilation down to a minimum otherwise you are shoveling sand against the tide.

[Acebird]

Do you make any attempt to measure the RH in the shed?

Bush never mind Bill.  He makes a good sermon to sleep through.  I asked about RH because I was wondering if your bathroom fan idea will freeze up.

[Michael Bush]

When it's -30 F outside the snow is 32 F.  It is very good insulation.  As long as the bees can fly (top entrance) on a warm day, I would leave the snow.  Mine would winter a lot better if we ever got an accumulation of snow, but that seldom happens here.  So we have to put up with the -30 with no insulation...

[Acebird]

They would both require me being present in the shed to read I believe.

If you maintain 40 degrees you can buy a small de-humidifier from a box store or on-line.  It would add a small amount of heat.  You would have to decide how you would deal with disposing of the water.  I would suggest a pump like a fountain pump triggered by a float.  You could monitor the exit tube for icing up.  If you were to connect a hose to the de-humidifier it would surely ice up.
Constant ventilation would be far better then cycling a fan.  Maybe Ian has done some measuring of CO2 to determine his ventilation requirements per hive.  This might give you some incite on sizing constant ventilation.  It would be great if it didn't need to be powered.  Since CO2 is heavier then oxygen the hives should be off the floor and the vent near the floor to exhaust the CO2 without power.

[Bush_84]

It?s so incredibly dry here in the winter that I don?t believe I need to stress about things being to wet. I run upper entrances and mountain camp before winter. Wet has never been an issue for me, which is why I don?t give it much thought. While I have never measured it I have never seen any evidence that my hives are wet. So I mostly ventilate for air exchange and releasing moist air is simply a byproduct. A heater also adds to the dry environment. As far as fans my current setup has never seized up on me. I?m not sure if I?d run into problems with a bathroom fan or not. I can certainly check the rh in my current shed and report back, however will take me a few days.

Air circulation is also a requirement. In my new shed I will install a ceiling fan. I believe Ian has multiple. This resolves the settling issue. I also have my current air intake high and my vent that passively lets air out is low. Will probably do something similar. It should also be mentioned that Ian ventilates his shed for a different purpose. His primary objective is cooling. His primary exhaust fan runs constantly and the secondary runs when temp gets above 4c. If his fans did not do this his shed would overheat. Therefore his primary driver for ventilation is temperature control not air exchange while I ventilate for air exchange while trying to minimize heat loss. Now I will say that I don?t work for him nor speak for him. So I cant say what he is exactly thinking, but according to his various videos this is what he has indicated.

[Acebird]

It?s so incredibly dry here in the winter that I don?t believe I need to stress about things being to wet.

Almost everywhere it is cold it will be dry outside.  The issue, if there is one, is the moisture coming from the bees breath.  Whether there is a moisture issue or not will depend on how many hives are kept in what volume of shed and how tight the shed is.  That is the same for the CO2 issue.  I read some where that a bee hive will expel 5 gal of water over the winter.  Ten hives is almost a barrel.  It is real easy to add heat and exhaust moisture with ventilation.  The only question is cost.  If the cost is acceptable then that is the route to go.

[eltalia]

@Bush_84 sayed;
" I would say that in my area you cannot achieve the same outcome without a shed. "

Not so, at all.
I have recently addressed some part of the equation in this thread:
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=50924.msg448118#msg448118

Given your difficulty in reading my work here again is the basics
of the science those who know rely on:
https://www.thermaxxjackets.com/insulation-ratings-r-factor-k-factor-c-factor/

"Sure the bees can still maintain their cluster, but at what cost when it?s -30 f with a
windchill of -60 f?  "

I had to check those stats for your local, turns out your conditions are
far 'better' than what some have to deal with in winter, notably those
throughout much of Britain.
Again, I addressed clustering earlier also;
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=50909.msg447960#msg447960

Ignoring rH, or rather, not understanding the impact internally and externally
to a colony is exactly where I would offer 99.5% of topical matter
in forums I read goes awry. Kensington MN is around a mean of 75% rH.
Combined with better than 12mph winds that factor alone should present a
significant problem, for a shed or any box.
The OP by @Apism talks about snow banks which would assist with the above
_if_ the other factors contributing to colony survival are met.
No shed is required, which is what this thread seems to be now implying.

Also, to assist you focus... it can be said there is at least one vacuous/juvenile
b'keep posting to this thread. It is not 'safe' to assume more than that
number exist.

Bill

[eltalia]

@Acebird tweeted;

"You can't compare a hobbyist set up to a full blown commercial set up."

When it is boiled down Ian's setup is a stable environment minus bees
to control the conditions. Each colony has that job on it's own, which
is as it should be.
FYI.
The building envelope is defined as the physical separator between the
interior and exterior of a building... or a box, and includes all controlled
air paths.
Help yourself to a true "sermon".

https://www.proctorgroup.com/heat-air-moisture-movement-managing-the-balance

Bill

[Bush_84]

This conversation has definitely evolved from the original as is often the case on forums. I still believe a lot of the difference comes from you not understanding what is going on here and your posts at time contradicting itself. In your first link your post states that bees fail to heat their surrounding, which I agree with. Then you finish by saying people shouldn?t allow heat to escape the hive walls. So it?s not important but it?s important. I do believe that keeping the wind out is a must but what is the point of insulating a hive if you keep an upper and lower entrance?  Also if moisture is a concern then you must keep an upper entrance.

I understand insulation. I also have an education based in science. So this isn?t over my head. I read that article and it?s basic stuff. If you understand this then you will understand why I choose to keep bees in a shed. Look at some of the data/articles from capabees.org. The beaver lodge research farm has done some interesting work on the subject. Their data indicates that bees start to cluster at 18c/64f. Cluster will continue to shrink until -10c/+14f is reached. If you really looked into my temperatures you?d see that my bees would be clustered as tight as can be for most of my winter with some nice days in between.  After that -10c/+14f mark bees have to generate heat from within their cluster,which is a physical drain on a bee and it slaps their resources. I?ll ask directly can you agree with this?

As far as my winters being better than that in the UK I?ll have to see some data to back that up. Hate to be that guy but I won?t believe it unless I can see it. The easiest way I have to compare is to compare plant hardiness zones (and I understand this is not a great way to compare but again it?s the easiest way I know how to compare) and they don?t look close. I?ve lived in 3a/4b for most of my life and it seems that the worst the uk gets is 7, which is similar to living in the south here in the us. Is there maybe a different measurement than temperature that you judge winters?

Back to rh I?ll give you my current data according to the internet not measured by myself. Humidity 61% and dew point -4 f. Assuming my dew point stays that low, which I?d have to research to determine, apparently I will never have condensation. That doesn?t really show me what?s going on inside the hive however. I will have to read through that article from proctorgroup. I don?t have the time now (at work and slow day but not slow enough to process that). Let me ask another direct question as I?ve already said I want to learn as much as I can about bees...what would you have me do about rh?  Knowing that I strive to keep my hives at 40 f, what rh should I strive to keep my shed at?

[Acebird]

Knowing that I strive to keep my hives at 40 f, what rh should I strive to keep my shed at?

I think Ian tries to keep his space below 50%.  I don't think drier hurts the bees but if you are ventilating to get it lower you are wasting heat.

After that -10c/+14f mark bees have to generate heat from within their cluster,which is a physical drain on a bee and it slaps their resources. I?ll ask directly can you agree with this?

I have to disagree with this.  The center of the cluster is kept around 90 degrees so bees are generating heat even in the summer time.  It is true they generate a lot more in the winter but honey can be converted into a lot of btu's.  The issue is how much can they consume before they have to dump?  I think the only way that bees can survive a long cold winter is by replacing the dead.  This is the reason they are maintaining such high cluster temperatures.

In most cases bees don't heat the hive.  That is not their intention.  However when you pack them so close together the heat they do produce will heat the hive.  If you take it a step further and pack a large number of colonies close together they will overheat the hive.  As I said before the devil is in the details.

[Bush_84]

http://www.capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/winteringpdf.pdf

That is the source of what I posted. I was also surprised that their numbers were as high as they were. I interpret the -10/+14 as ramping up their heat production. If they can no longer tighten their cluster then they adapt to the colder temps by increasing heat production.

I also agree that the devil is in the details. My details are not the same as Ian?s and his are not the same as the op. Hell my details will likely change as I expand my apiary.

Edit-I found the topic on bee source that was discussing rh in Ian?s shed. In it he determined that he needed to in fact add water to his shed to maintain his rh above 40%. Again not sure if he still does this or not.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-291547.html

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Mr Bush, hope warm weather blows your way.  You mentioned relative humidity (rh) and temperatures, so I calculated some condensation points for you. I hope this is useful to you.

Temperature 40F:  your shed/building temp.

rh. 90 percent.     Condensation occurs at 37F

rh. 80 percent.     Condensation occurs at 34F

rh. 70 percent.     ?.    ?.    ?.     ?.     ?.     31F. FROST appears

Changing subject, 2/6/18, tomorrow night, N. Arkansas is predicted to have an ice storm.  Wonderful, just wonderful.  :).  Oh well, gotta luv the challenge of bee keeping.
Blessings

[Michael Bush]

>Mr Bush, hope warm weather blows your way.

It was 0 F this morning...

[eltalia]

@Bush_84 in belief wrote;
"I still believe a lot of the difference comes from you not understanding what is
going on here and your posts at time contradicting itself"

hmmmm... you're just not working very hard at encouragng me to see my efforts are
worthwhile, hey.
Having already acknowledged my writing style does not suit _all_ reads of the work I
am not going to ask - or chase down - what it is in need of repeating that which has
already been put. Like the old adage says, "if you have to explain the 'splain' it aint
never going to fly.
As example only. For the specific instance you rely on I quote context.
_____________
"So.. regardless of where in the NH temperate climes a b'keeps job is to
keep the heat in, not keep the "cold" out. The tired old line "bees
clustering stay warm" is pure nonsense as the reality is bees cluster in
an attempt - often vain - to extend their heat into the envionment, the
cell body and wood. An organism trying to be a spaceheater. As many
have found - and will find -  many such colonys fail in engineering their
environment.
Were the beekeeper to use a product and/or construction which retained
the heat within the hive body - that is, not allow heat to leak from the walls
 etc - 99% of wintering hazards would be eliminated.
One path, starting point, is use of poly hive bodies."
_______________
Mulling over a simpler communication for those two paragraphs I can only come up
with -- forcing onto the bees a shrinkage in clustering over the alternative to
providing wintering infrastructure simply guarantees those not able to - or not
allowed (by bees) - to reach into that core zone will die.
There is no contradiction in that information.

Anecdotal evidence of deadouts does put credence to the above - whether they be
starved or 'frozen' bees. Michael Bush advocates overcoming some of the risk in
allowing deeper (thicker) clusters. So, effectively, Michael too acknowledges deep
clustering as a wintering method. Science wise, an error... beekeeping wise,
unproductive for many.
________________
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=50909.msg447970#msg447970

While the difference is not large, I find that bees winter better in 8 frames than 10
_________________

Were b'keeps in like conditions to provide the environmental envelope which allowed
bees to cluster, without shrinking the extents(face) in survival, not only would less
stores be required going into winter but the endurance of the wintering bee would not
be maxed out, providing vibrant bees for that Spring buildup.

Bill

[Acebird]

In it he determined that he needed to in fact add water to his shed to maintain his rh above 40%.

Temperature and humidity are tough to control by venting.  If you try to control one thing you effect the other.  In order to control both you need a system for both.

[Bush_84]

In it he determined that he needed to in fact add water to his shed to maintain his rh above 40%.

Temperature and humidity are tough to control by venting.  If you try to control one thing you effect the other.  In order to control both you need a system for both.

Ya I?m not going to claim that I know what needs to be done in relation to rh. I still deem that in my situation I have not had any issues with moisture high or low. So I may start monitoring it (as I do have a setup with the ability) but I will continue to not worry about it. I have never seen any evidence of condensation in my hives and have not seen sufficient evidence that a low rh is detrimental in my local.

[Acebird]

Have you determined what killed 11 of your hives?  I wonder if there is such a thing as dying of thirst for a bee hive?

[Bush_84]

Have you determined what killed 11 of your hives?  I wonder if there is such a thing as dying of thirst for a bee hive?

I put 11 in and have lost 8. These were my first losses in my shed. Three were late splits and didn?t have time to build up a big enough cluster. Lesson learned. The other five were a combination of unfortunate events. They all had big clusters and honey left. I tried a different heater this winter thinking it was safer but wasn?t strong enough. We had a long string of cold day and my shed got cold and I didn?t act fast enough. These hives seemed to have some brood and starved with honey overhead. To many days in a row without a warm up and they couldnt reorganize their stores back to the cluster. So another lesson learned.