Virgin queen, excluder question.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Can an average size virgin queen pass through a queen excluder?

Last year, I discovered a virgin queen on the excluded side of my queen rearing hive, cloake board system.  Yes I discovered the small built virgin queen in time, no harm done and I did recover many queen cells prior to finding this virgin queen. Not sure how she got on the excluded side, unless her small frame allowed her to pass from the queen rite side to the excluded side.  I am confident there were no eggs to make a queen on the excluded, queen less side.

I was about to add more eggs for the second batch of queen cells to the excluded side and first I checked to make sure all was Ok, that is when I found virgin queen in the excluded side.
Blessings

[AR Beekeeper]

A normal size virgin can't pass through an excluder, her thorax is too big.  If she is a runt, then yes she can go through. 

[eltalia]

That which ARB wrote would apply if a QX was in place. However two things worth noting
here in management.
For those periods where supercedure or colony replication (swarming) is desired - or bound
to occur - the QX must be out. Inclusion will slow or deny alltogether the outcomes for work
done by the beekeeper to manage either event.
Further, there exists a risk in sending a colony queenless -  possibly into laying worker mode
- where a QX is put in place in error, or again, left in place ad infinitum. The circumstance you
(Van) report being the trigger for the latter.

As QX use is by selection (timing) all QX paths should be checked for tight before fitting and
all hardware above made right for only bee use, particularly where top entrances are used.

Bill

[iddee]

No, an average virgin can't get through a GOOD queen excluder. It doesn't take much of a bump to spread a wire enough to let one through. I have put QX on bottom boards and the swarm left anyway. I chalked it up to a bent excluder. In your case, I would guess you missed eggs or young brood in the initial setup. It don't take much.

[eltalia]

@iddee"
I have put QX on bottom boards and the swarm left anyway"

At those times the only place for queen restriction is at
the entrance. Use of  QX as described - even if it did work as intended -
simply causes bees angst and so should not be deployed in such a manner.

Bill

[iddee]

So the QX causes trouble for the bees if on the bottom board, but not if below the cell graft or honey super, or across the entrance.
You keep believing that. I will believe it causes them the same problems where ever it is.

Of course, maybe us newbees should listen and learn. After all, I've only been at it about 41 years.

[eltalia]

@iddee
"After all, I've only been at it about 41 years."

How did I know this is exactly where this 'discussion' would go?

Soo... as said in the other post on thermal exchange it is best I shut my yap
as -  if you can do the maths (mentally) - 1965-2017, AND the entry being
a  formal Agri module of study of 3years duration, your 41 years of doing the
same thing year in year out is topped by mine in moving along with change
that works. One being how and when to apply queen excluders at the desired
location in an Apis.m.* colony.
For your edification much the same applies for that other communal
honeybee, Tetrogonula.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragonula_carbonaria

"Anything can happen, child. Anything can be".
That sig.line requires adjusting, friend :-/

Bill

-- on this thread I can be contacted by PM, all welcome.

/topic 0ff

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

I have concerns of an entrance queen excluder knocking pollen off the workers leg.  I do not know this for sure, like I said a concern.  I rarely use QX: exceptions are; on my timing box vertical and for queen cell rearing horizontal as I use a queen rite colony.

Thanks for replies.
Blessings

[kanga]

I have put QX on bottom boards and the swarm left anyway.

Have had the same thing happen on at least 2 occasions.  I have also observed it preventing the queen from leaving and the bees all returning after 10 minutes of flying around.

I personally do not see any issues with putting the excluder on the bottom board as it is only there for a short period.

Kev

[little john]

I have concerns of an entrance queen excluder knocking pollen off the workers leg.  I do not know this for sure, like I said a concern.  I rarely use QX: exceptions are; on my timing box vertical and for queen cell rearing horizontal as I use a queen rite colony.

Good morning Van.
That was once also a concern of mine, and so I knocked-up a test rig to fit onto one of my queenless starter-finishers:





I kept this rig in place for 2 weeks, after which I found just 3 small pellets in the drawer.  From this I conclude that (in practice) horizontal wires spaced 4.16mm apart will not strip pollen away from bees' legs.  However, I suspect that vertical wires might.  That needs testing.

With reference to the wider question of whether virgin queens can pass through a QX - the answer is "yes, they can" (but with difficulty) - that is, within the first 36hrs following emergence, whilst their exoskeleton is still soft and flexible.  After their bodies have hardened, virgin queens cannot - with the exception of undersized virgins, of course - and whenever the QX is faulty.
'best,
LJ

[iddee]

As I stated, I am a newbie. Went from moving 2500 hives between Wisconsin and Florida for a few years, to making honey with 30 to 40 hives in Mississippi, to removing colonies from unwanted areas, to raising queens and nucs for the market.

Yep, same old habits, year after year

There's only two ways. Eltalia's way and the wrong way. No in between.

Yes, kanga, it works most times for me, but they have managed to escape a couple of times.

[Acebird]

I haven't used a QX since my first year.  The two I had were plastic and are now broken up.  I don't do queen rearing but I do do splits.  I don't understand the use of a QX to keep the queen in.  If it is a virgin don't you want the queen to go out to mate?  If it is an accepted mated queen what is the need?

[little john]

I haven't used a QX since my first year.  The two I had were plastic and are now broken up.  I don't do queen rearing but I do do splits.  I don't understand the use of a QX to keep the queen in.  If it is a virgin don't you want the queen to go out to mate?  If it is an accepted mated queen what is the need?

When queen-rearing, QX's are pretty-much essential to keep stray/lost virgins OUT of any hive you're trying to keep queenless.  Also very handy for filtering bees without including a queen.  But other than for those kind of queen-rearing operations, I'm inclined to agree with the above.
LJ

[texanbelchers]

With reference to the wider question of whether virgin queens can pass through a QX - the answer is "yes, they can" (but with difficulty) - that is, within the first 36hrs following emergence, whilst their exoskeleton is still soft and flexible.  After their bodies have hardened, virgin queens cannot - with the exception of undersized virgins, of course - and whenever the QX is faulty.

Best answer I've seen for this recurring question!

QX are great tools when used properly.   In addition to those listed above,  they are great to keep a removal in place untll they have settled in.  I've had some swarmy genetics that needed it to hold them until I got them requeened.  One needs to understand what it does, both good and bad, then not be afraid of it or dogmatic.

I was concerned about the wires and rough handling.   I opted for the newer design plastic they are inexpensive and seem to hold up really well.

[Acebird]

they are great to keep a removal in place untll they have settled in.

Again I have no experience with a removals but I would think if the whole colony is caged in with #8 screen like a package for 3 or 4 days it would do the same thing.  The colony would have a lot to do in repairs and cleaning up spilled honey, preparing cells for the queen to keep laying.  I can't see how keeping the whole colony imprisoned would hurt.

[iddee]

Ace, when you do a removal, you don't get the last bee in the box. You leave the box for the stragglers to find their queen and enter the box. You don't want the queen to leave during that time.

[Acebird]

Ace, when you do a removal, you don't get the last bee in the box. You leave the box for the stragglers to find their queen and enter the box. You don't want the queen to leave during that time.

OK so the bottom box is a deep with a screen over it and no entrance.  The top box has an entrance and is a shallow to get the stragglers.  How long does this process take?

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Ace, good day Sir, to answer your question ?of how long??  If the queen is laying, Then I consider it CONFIRMATION, good to remove excluder, usually only a few days.  Now I only have experience with packages, not with wild caught, or removals, but I would think the egg laying as a rule, would prevail. 

Off subject, with a swarm trap, if the bees are bringing in pollen, that also is to me, CONFIRMATION that the bees have accepted the trap as their new home.
Blessings

[Michael Bush]

The thorax of a bee does not change size.  A virgin has the same size thorax on emergence as she does when she's mated.  It is the thorax that won't fit through the excluder.  That said, yes, some queens can get through if you give them enough motivation.  A lot of smoke is pretty good motivation.  I found a queen stuck in the excluder once...  she couldn't get through and couldn't get free... but I've only seen that once in 43 years...

[little john]

The thorax of a bee does not change size.  A virgin has the same size thorax on emergence as she does when she's mated.  It is the thorax that won't fit through the excluder. 

I had no idea this could possibly become a point of contention.

[...] according to M.E.A. McNeil in The Hive and the Honey Bee (2015), a new virgin queen does not become sexually mature for five to six days after emergence. A number of things need to happen before she is ready to fly. Like all insects, the outer layer of chitin covering her body must become hardened and thickened, a process that may take several days.
https://honeybeesuite.com/when-will-newly-hatched-queen-begin-lay/

Although the thorax may indeed remain the same 'size', prior to the chitin hardening the thorax is a soft and flexible structure, and so the newly emerged virgin queen may well be able to squeeze (albeit with some difficulty) through gaps she would not then be able to do once she has 'hardened-up'.
LJ

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Lil John, good afternoon...  I posted a question about pollen and an excluder.  Again, you posted beautiful pics, answering the question with your hand made, painted, devices specifically built for answering a specific question: does an entrance excluder knock pollen off a workers legs?  Answer, no an entrance excluder does not knock off pollen on the legs.

Thank you again Lil John, for taking your time, lots of time, to provide an answer.
Blessings