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Author Topic: Aggressive bees with potent stingers  (Read 3920 times)

Offline omnimirage

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Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« on: January 16, 2018, 10:48:58 pm »
I captured some swarms last spring, and moved them to a new apiary site. I hadn't checked up on them as frequently as I should have, the supers were rather crowded which I know induces aggressive behaviour. The bees were rather aggressive and I possibly had the most painful beesting I've experienced since starting beekeeping, was excruciating.

I'm rather unsure how to proceed. I've gave them an extra super, so hopefully they'll be less aggressive. I was interacting with them at night time. Are bees more aggressive when they're all clustered in their hive at night? I believe the potency of bee stings is caused by whatever the local bees are foraging. I was considering moving more bees up to this site, but I don't want to until I find out what's going on because it was quite a painful stressful experience.

Could there be something in the local environment that's causing them to be more aggressive? They hadn't been looked at in 5 months, when I dropped them off they had only just graduated from nuc size colony to deep super size.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2018, 05:37:41 am »
Omni,
I never deal with my bees at night except to Screen up the entrance for moving them. Bees are very defensive at night. All your field bees are in the hive and they have nothing to do but protect the hive. Work your bees when your field bees are out on a good flow.
Smoke these bees, wait 10 minutes, smoke lightly again and wait 30 seconds. I think you will find a much gentler hive but never at night.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Offline little john

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2018, 07:25:15 am »
I can't speak for your area (obviously), but in this locality swarms originate either from beekeepers who don't care, or don't know what they're doing - or both.  It's not surprising then that such swarms invariably consist of mongrel bees, which may well have been recently created from pure-breds.  2nd-generation crosses can (but not always) be very aggressive indeed, and so it's then reasonable to assume that uber-aggressive bees are very likely mongrels, although not all mongrels are necessarily aggressive.
Add to that inspecting at night when - as Jim says - the older forager bees (those with far more 'attitude' than nurse bees) will be in residence, and you've got yourself the perfect recipe for getting stung big-time.

So - inspect those hives during the day, and preferably in good weather (when the foragers will be out working); move the brood boxes to one side if necessary - assuming you're able to do this - to further deplete the number of foragers present; but be prepared to re-queen those colonies if they still remain difficult to manage.  Beekeeping doesn't have to be an ordeal.
LJ
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Offline omnimirage

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2018, 08:42:02 am »
Good to know thanks for good information.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2018, 10:42:49 am »
They hadn't been looked at in 5 months, when I dropped them off they had only just graduated from nuc size colony to deep super size.

In 5 months I would have expected this hive to swarm twice already.  Maybe it is on its third round with cells in the hive and then at night?  If you haven't been near a hive in 5 months it is not the same hive that you left.
I don't believe venom has anything to do with forage.  The location on your body and the depth of penetration will effect sting discomfort.
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Offline omnimirage

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2018, 06:37:02 pm »
Apparently they did swarm once already.

I'm not sure but I was told by a local professional apiarist that the forage does influence the potency of stings. I was working with him on Canola fields and their stingers hurt and he told me that the Canola creates painful potent stings.

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2018, 09:29:43 pm »
 Could be, but I find all stingers painful.  The ones that sting my face make the biggest impression, though.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2018, 10:02:52 pm »
Mirage, I am concerned about the PAINFUL beestings.  I believe you.  There are factors that can cause a feeling of increase in pain.

1.  Taking pain medication reduces, lowers one?s pain threshold, thus pain is well, more painful.  I doubt if this is applicable in your case.
2.  Pressure on nerves caused by damage or aging can create HYPERreflex.  I have this condition.
3.  Certain medications can cause increase in pain receptors firing or in crease with sensation.
4.  Neurological conditions can cause increase in pain.
5.  Anxiety, alcohol, heat stress can increase pain.
6.  Bee variety could have increased venom load or venom toxicity.  Bee venom is mostly mellitin, however there is a cocktail of venoms, not just a single source.
7.  Increase in histamine due to immune stimulation by known or unknown infection.  Note how painful a wound gets, ESPECIALLY an infected wound, this is due to immune response.
8. Cessation of steroids, again, I doubt this is applicable in your case.

What I am hoping is in the future the pain is less noticeable as you experienced a temporary condition.  If the sting pain actually worsens, see your doctor to be on safe side.
Blessings

Offline omnimirage

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2018, 10:56:12 pm »
Thanks for the heads up.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2018, 12:31:51 am »
Apparently they did swarm once already.

I'm not sure but I was told by a local professional apiarist that the forage does influence the potency of stings. I was working with him on Canola fields and their stingers hurt and he told me that the Canola creates painful potent stings.

This (topic) is another I was urged to keep my yap shut on, however reading your use of
tautology ("professional apiarist") in reinforcement of spurious (?) claim of canola
byproducts moves me to tap out;
...an "apiarist" is usually a journeyman of sorts - tho' today many accept someone who
runs more than a few colonies, beginning less than a few years previous, to fit the bill.
...around bees, per se, a "professional" would be someone with tertiary qualifications
 _and_  considerable experience around the science of entomology, with specialist
knowledge in at least one discipline of the science.

You might ask your 'professional' was that claim for GI canola or any canola, yeh?

On topic... managing Apis is tied to accepting their defence systems. In short, be around
stinging bees you are going to get stung. When and how you get stung is down to your
management, stuff you can fix or ignore.
Too many today choose to ignore and so the bee-suit industry roars in excitation.
Your post(s) don't telegraph an understanding of the organism you are handling.
I trust in time that too changes... lucks with it all.

Bill

Offline omnimirage

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2018, 07:02:20 am »
Well I say he's a professional apiarist because a large part of his income that he lives off has came from his 100 beehives and he has three decades of experience.

I'm not sure what type of canola it was.

How would you suggest to go about fixing it?

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2018, 10:59:31 am »
When I first started trying to keep bees I did everything in my power to prevent getting stung.  the whole kit; full suit, leather gloves, boots and tons of smoke.  I got stung anyway. 

One of the first things I noticed was that getting stung really wasn't all that bad.  I still don't like it, but I'm not terrified of stings any longer.  I realized bees will sting because it is what they do in response to my actions. 

Another thing I noticed was that the intensity of stings varies from sting to sting.  I doubt if it has anything to do with the forage but, rather, it has more to do with the location of the sting and, perhaps, the age of the bee.

Now my kit consists of a mosquito net jacket and easy does it on the smoke.  I usually work them barehanded.  I get stung less often this way because I can feel the bees and not crush them (which triggers alarm pheromone).  Sometimes I use nitrile gloves if I am doing something very invasive.

Yes, some stings hurt more than others.  It's just the way it is.
Winter is coming.

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2018, 03:34:07 pm »
Hops, good post.  I forgot to mention, I received 4 stings from a single hive, same time, last year.   I crushed a bee by accident and things just got worse and worse for until, 4 stings later I walked away and let the bees calm down.  Of note, 2 stings on hand no reaction, third sting on knee a little swelling, fourth sting on my ankle, stinger hit the bone, was almost crippling for 6 hours.

4 stings, one hive, one person, same time frame, three different reactions, 2 no reactions, 1 mild swelling, and 1 was unbearable.  For interest, I have received stings past 60 years.  I received another sting 4 months later, no problem.  Go figure.
Blessings

Offline eltalia

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2018, 06:23:54 pm »
One of the first things I noticed was that getting stung really wasn't all that bad.  I still don't like it, but I'm not terrified of stings any longer.  I realized bees will sting because it is what they do in response to my actions. 
Pretty much how it is Hops, and to expand on that observation I recount
an experiment which can be done safely by all who do not own any known allergy.

Having just started my newest trainee b'keep - an old employee/mate of Basque origins, and so excitable yet high in resolve - the exercise is fresh
fill to the frontal lobe so too easy to dump into text.
Differing from many others I mix with the very first elements of the "I wanna know about bees" agenda is to cover stings and then smoke.
They can read the book _after_ they get past Lesson 1(one).
I choose those two topics as what is universally accepted as "bee facts" by Joe Public is bees always sting you and smoke drives them away, both
inherently erroneous. Such mantra leads to poor practice by the persistant... in a beesuit.
Before beginning the lesson I give out a veil in order to install enough confidence to watch closely without the flee and wave response kicking in.
Lesson;
Allowing smoke to drift across an entrance I select a bee which stays put in not overly reacting and pick the fella up by the wings to then move back within close eyesight of the trainee. You can often see the stinger being deployed to demonstrate the bees reaction to being picked up. You have a guard bee, fully potent. I then apply the bees butt to the back of the left hand behind the prime knuckle, squishing the fella as stinger lodges. Counting "one one thousand two one thousand...." I reach for my trusty bowie style not sharp pocketknife (previously deployed nearby) to then scrape along the skin on reaching "... five one thousand".
Stinger sac removed I then show how the very end of the barb usually remains lodged in skin. After the second part of lesson (@pplying smoke) I revisit that sting site to show the splinter still remaining and no swelling. I then encourage the trainee to repeat the lesson, a number of times depending on their level of acceptance.
Sure, the sting "hurts" but no more than any intramuscular injection. It is
the second stage, the pumping of venom, that really sets ones pain levels singing. So get past the initial hit, get the stinger sac removed within 10 seconds and there should only be a mild reaction, even on a direct deliberate hit to an eyebrow or, my most sensitive spot often hit, the fingerprint of the middle finger right hand which has nerve damage from an industrial accident. I miss one of those - 'cos the frame cannot be dropped - and the whole print is sensitive for days. Rarely do I get away from a brood chamber strip without at least a half dozen hits on that finger.

Quote
Yes, some stings hurt more than others.  It's just the way it is.
Indeed so, and I have always found it is the fellas which launch themselves at you that prove most enduring. When such a reaction occurs it is a message, so walk away. They usually settle within a few minutes and the delay created in waiting, and further in smoking bees back down off topbars, is small bananas in terms of keeping the whole colony happy with your work.

Bill

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2018, 10:08:01 pm »
Bill, hey Buddy::::: did I read your above text correctly:  you deliberately let a bee sting you to demo to new beeks????  Is that correct?  You are a devoted fella, with more er uh uh bravery than I.  Well done, fella.
Blessings

Offline Acebird

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2018, 05:44:17 pm »
It is
the second stage, the pumping of venom, that really sets ones pain levels singing. So get past the initial hit, get the stinger sac removed within 10 seconds and there should only be a mild reaction,
I have read after 3 seconds the sac is empty.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2018, 08:38:04 pm »
My son used to beg for bee stings every day for back pain. Since we got him off the opioids and on to legal marijuana he has never asked for one sting.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2018, 09:19:37 pm »
Jim, that is sad that your son has such back pain.  I have severe back pain, just wear and tear and up in my years, mid 60s I am, so I have no complaints.  However I hate to think of young fellas going thru what I experience.  May your son get better with age, is my hope.  Must have been in a lot of pain to ask for bee stings.  You have my sympathy.
Blessings

Offline eltalia

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2018, 10:04:42 pm »
Bill, hey Buddy::::: did I read your above text correctly:  you deliberately let a bee sting you to demo to new beeks????  Is that correct?  You are a devoted fella, with more er uh uh bravery than I.  Well done, fella.
Blessings
Yer gunna get stung,, whatever... so best to know before even starting up if a.) you can tolerate the
first stage, and b.) you can keep a mind to scrape out a hit.
A quality fingernail works just as well but is site specific. A blade can cover ground in one sweep to
neck/thigh/buttock.
So "brave"..?.. no, more like insurance, as I cannot work with a Waver come Swatter. No way can bees be
worked for hours here in a beesuit, the dehydration will kill ya, nevermind they tear as easy as dunnypaper
hanging in 90% humidity.

I accept I am different from many others in approach, a recent example being the first enquiry on buying
a new machine. The revved up sales guy was all set to show me all the tricks it owned when I interrupted
his spiel with "before we go there show me how you stop the engine".
He looked at me like I had two heads, stammered, and said "ummm, I am not sure...why is that
important?". I gave him the redneck description of me riding the machine out of the yard unable to stop
 and him fast dialing the Poeliss on his smartFone as I rode off into the sunset, hat askew.
Yep, he thought I was bonkers too... but happy to sell the machine, like :-))

Bill

Offline eltalia

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Re: Aggressive bees with potent stingers
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2018, 10:15:25 pm »
It is
the second stage, the pumping of venom, that really sets ones pain levels singing. So get past the initial hit, get the stinger sac removed within 10 seconds and there should only be a mild reaction,
I have read after 3 seconds the sac is empty.

....errrr, ahhh...lemme quote?
Beekeeping Is Local.
So maybe that Author had QuickDrawMcGraw bees.

Might I suggest that if you have any bees alive come Spring you do the count
yourself..?..then you _Will_ know know.

Bill

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