Bee genetics

[Dallasbeek]

Dallas, how thought provoking, good catch.  I never looked at the migration that way.  This opens up new thought for me, the genetics of the original honeybees to America.  Ingenious, just ingenious.

I in no way thought what I was writing was terribly profound.  I was merely speculating how tolerant the fellow passengers may have been or how little bother those particular bees were.  Either way, the transport of those bees was fortuitous for the agriculture in the new world and for us.

[eltalia]

(edit)
 I ask because all of my beehives are from feral beeswarms and I'm now considering what to do with them.

You know this for fact at your location?

Bill

Bit of an exaggeration, I have about 28 hives, about 21 came from swarms, the others were
derived from a beekeeper who abandoned his bees and has unknown origins.

And you know for a fact that about 21came from local feral swarms?

Bill

[eltalia]

Bwallace, I know what you are saying about settlers bringing bees from Europe is true, but I'm just trying to imagine how they were able to transport a bunch of bees on a sailing ship for voyages of months, then jostle them over makeshift roads to wherever they were going without major problems -- with the bees and with fellow passengers.  Maybe they were VERY gentle bees.

Or the method could simply be the beginnings of what is done today, across Australia/USA/Europe
or across the oceans, locked down and fed.
It boggles the mind to imagine free flight bees on the poopdeck - or further on, waltzing
around the buckboard of a prairie-wagon - open-feeding, without being left in the trail of
such journeys, wholly disorientated, quite probably most antsy.

Buuuuut maybe right there is where Bee Keeping 101 was birthed?

Bill

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Dallas, you are a humble man, very good trait. Don?t ya see, the migration would have been highly selective, for bees that could survive being cooped up for the long trip to America.  Then we have the wagons as you mentioned, bees don?t like vibration so more selection, culling.

Wallace earlier text, correctly pointed out the German bee was introduced in the 1920, but the German black bee was meaner than a junk yard dog.  There were replaced with Italians form limited sources as LJ pointed out.

When air travel was possible, Queens could have been transported quickly traveling in coat pockets thus avoiding selection (culling) of the bees only capable of being caged for the long ocean voyage.  The caged bees most likely located in a dark cold moist compartment of the boat.  Yes, Dallas, what you pointed out was brilliant, individualistic thinking. 
Blessings
Blessings

[gww]

Just to break (My take from it) down what the study in the link I provided that studied gene make up of one area.  The managed hives had more variance than the ferals.  The ferals with less variance still had a stronger imune system.

  The wider the variance that the ferals had, the better thier imune system.  The biggest differance to the strength of the imune system was the parisite presure being put on them.  The more parisite pressure, the better the bees adjusted using whatever gene variance they had.  The more variances they had to work with, the better they did.

  We may not have quite as much variance as can be found over europe but.  I am sure there are some studies of areas that model this study that could prove that out or disprove it.

  This study though seems to show the part that variance plays and the bigger part that putting pressure on those variances brings whatever strenght is there to the fore front.  It proves out that it is the pressure bringing out the good stuff as much as it is what is started with though apparrently starting with more variance or adding more may have some binnifit.

Plus, this probly works both ways as they mites evolve differrent base on the differrent enviroment they are also in.

  Which means the most in the war?  I don't know.  I only know that the war as far as mites are concerned has only been going on a short time in the big picture and the adjustments even if not perfect are happening pretty fast.

One other thing.  This was only a study of a very small area and there was lots of bottle neck in diversity with not all bees in that area being the same.  I am sure that most areas around the world would come up the same.  Yes, there might be more starting variance in the origional place where our bees came from before they got here though with world travel, everything sure seems to end up every where.  The other thing is, are we managing a wild thing or is a managed thing excapeing and becoming wild.  The first hive to ever be managed from a wild thing happened long enough ago that out impact should have been like it was with the cow but unlike the cow, the bees grew wild right along with what we grew by managing.

The guys doing the measuring can measure what each bee has but don't know how the bees are tollerating mites.  They only measure that some change has come but are still looking for the how of it.
Cheers
gww

[Michael Bush]

A little light reading for you.

Articles in the American Bee Journal on whether or not honey bees are native to North America:
https://books.google.com/books?id=29swAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA299&dq=American+Bee+Journal+%22Jeremy+Belknap%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAGoVChMIgJus0IOxxwIVFBKSCh2NFwF7#v=onepage&q=American%20Bee%20Journal%20%22Jeremy%20Belknap%22&f=false

2008 study showing that feral bees are a distinct genetic population:
http://www.dissertations.wsu.edu/Dissertations/Summer2008/d_delaney_070108.pdf

1995 study showing the same:
https://academic.oup.com/jee/article-abstract/88/5/1216/2216395

Another link to the 1995 study in case that one is broken or not available:
http://beesource.com/point-of-view/africanized-honey-bees/southeastern-united-states-honey-bees/

Comparing traits and genetics of pre and post varroa bees:
http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/naldc/download.xhtml?id=27253&content=PDF

[omnimirage]

Woah, so there's some proof that feral bees do have different genetic pools than apiarist bees. How interesting.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Thank you, MB, lots to read, gonna take me a while to read all the info.

{Woah, so there's some proof that feral bees do have different genetic pools than apiarist bees. How interesting.}. Mirage, of course,,,, there are differences from one apiary to another among mitochondrial dna, so it is a gimmy, as they say.  Understand, I have no adversity to feral or apiary raised.  I am mainly interested in the given traits of bees in my apiary and espically varroa resistance if I can every get my hands on such.

If I have to climb trees or travel, apirary or feral is OK with me.  The end game TO ME is a gentle chemical free survivor bee that produces honey and winters well.  I think, it?s gonna be a while,,,, but literally any day a queen could emerge or be discovered.  The new mite bitter queen sure has my attention.

Thanks again MB for your links.

Blessings

[eltalia]

@omnimirage

.... more like Battle of  the Book Binders being tuned into.
Somehow Michael brings to the page an image of that SalvoArmy captain
frothily ranting at the door of the pub during the Friday night "six oclock swill".


https://academic.oup.com/jee/article-abstract/88/5/1216/2216395
"Analysis of mtDNA haplotypes showed that 4% of the 142 commercial breeder queen colonies were maternal descendants of Apis mellifera mellifera , a subspecies that was imported into the United States by the 17th century but is no longer used commercially. The other 96% were probably descendants of A. m. ligustica. or A. m. carnica, subspecies imported in the 19th century which are still sold as commercial strains"


Despite the use of "probably" you now have a guide of sorts to assist
in determining the origins of those 21 swarms. There is bound to be
similar study done around Aussie ferals to be felched outa Guggle.com...
...one I have a faint memory of being a Tassie piece of research claiming
their ferals are the only direct descendants of the English Black Bee, the
starter for our mainland BushBee aka "ferals".
Whatever...
I'd return you to your opening paragraph from your original post to say
yet again the feral bee is not for you, or I, nor for any responsible apiarist
in Australia.


Bill

[gww]

van
Maby visit these guys and see if you want what they have.  They say they are already doing what you say you want to do.  Why wait.
https://www.frosthoneybeefarm.com/
See, I don't think all problims go away with just the right queen.  I watched all the guys who are treating this year that lost all their hives on a differrent forum.  But these guys are doing good enough to have stuff to sell.  Everybody is waiting for the magic pill but there is no such thing and that is why the winter loss rate is in the 20 to 30 percent range no matter what you do.  Yet there are some in some areas making six hundred per hive with out treating and with out buying anything from out side thier apary and with out treating.  I don't say it works everywhere.  There were states last year that had 50 percent loss while treating.  But in your state this place is surviving and so maby you could too.

What I do is look around at the possibilities and then try the things others prove out.  Even if it does not work for me, I know it can work and so figure it must still be something I don't know yet in management. I then decide what it is worth to me or if there are other routes that seem easier.

I guess my point is. 

I think, it?s gonna be a while,,,, but literally any day a queen could emerge or be discovered.

It isn't going to be a while cause people are already doing it with queens that have already emerged.  I don't say that means it will work for me, in my area (Though it is so far).

The thing about experiances is that if you look at the stuff collected by state, not even the guys keeping bees in exactly the same way have the same death rates.  Go to the bee imformed site and look at the numbers they collect.  If it proves one thing, it proves there will never be that perfect queen and that bee keeping is always going to be a little hard.
Cheers
gww
Ps I don't mind if somebody treats and feels like it is helping them.  My view is the guy doing the work gets to decide.  I just don't discount out of hand those that are doing something differrent then me and being happy with it as it not being true.  I believe the guy who I mentioned earlier that made six hundred per hive and does not treat.

Ps ps Hi bill

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Bless you GWW, neighbor.  I will obtain this beautiful stock from your link,,, chemical free, yes, yes, yes.
Thank you, Sir.

[eltalia]

[edit]

 The new mite bitter queen sure has my attention.

G'day Van.. would you clean this up for us non USA engrish types, please?
Issat "bitter" as in tastes foul...
or intended to read "biter" which signifys a style of personal attack in Australia?
The latter is what I got from reading the article yet little comment has been
made on how the progeny is so effective or whether the queens bitterness
towards mites is the attraction.

Thanks again MB for your links.

Academia is whats binds the thought of the practical into reality but
today's Internet has proved a host for those of bent on fame to complicate
the reality with wads of often dubious reference... if only in the style of
language used. Like, one I quickly read was an abstract for starters and then
used "probably" wrapped as a Fact... those go straight in the bin in my book.
I personally have had a gutful (gripes) of "Black Hole" theorists and
quantum mechanics wannabees to last me what lifetime I have left.. heh ;-)

....rant done.
Thanks maaaaate ;-)

Bill

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Yes Sir, Mr. Bill, please excuse my English, yes I write on an 8th grade level, but standard on the web.

Actually BITTER is an unpleasant taste, however biter would be more correct, but the colloquial term is BITTER  as understood as a queen bee that produces worker offspring that attack viciously, biting the mites.  The queen does not attack mites to my knowledge, just the offspring.

English is very confusing, George Carlin Circa 2,000;
In English Little is spelled with six letters L I T T L E contrary to big which is spelled with three letters
B I G.  So little is twice as big, confused, well now you get an A in English.

More confusion, a standard lid for a 10 frame Lang hive is called a telescoping lid; a flat lid with sides about 2 inches.  Telescope is Latin meaning tele (distance) scope (to view) so how in the heck is this lid referred to as a TELESCOPING lid.  I dunna no, sumptom funie to me, as spoken in dat dar local tung. Hope to make you laugh. :)
Blessings

[eltalia]

"Hope to make you laugh. "....

Indeed I shalt hauleth my  B I G   A   off to start
my day amongst bees lest I kack* meself laffin'..!

You're a true gem good buddy ;-)

Bill

--
* accidental bowel opening

[omnimirage]

I'd return you to your opening paragraph from your original post to say
yet again the feral bee is not for you, or I, nor for any responsible apiarist
in Australia.


Bill

Can you present an argument for why? I'm currently deciding what to do with my beehives. Using the limited information I have available, it seems best to not be concerned what the origins of the bees are, and instead to focus on how well the bees are actually performing. To squish the queens that are from aggressive, or low performing hives, and to split from hives that show the highest productivity.

I could buy some queens from breeders, create some sort of breeding nuc(s) and then replace all of my queens with these. If I did this, any future swarms that I capture I can replace their queen with one of my bred queens so I'd not have any swarmed queens. I'm not sure what the advantages, and disadvantages of doing so would be.

[eltalia]

I'd return you to your opening paragraph from your original post to say
yet again the feral bee is not for you, or I, nor for any responsible apiarist
in Australia.

Bill

Can you present an argument for why?

Sure... some are logged in this very thread. However maybe your
effort in seeking information from your local NP&WS  would sway you
way more than any text I put up, that is if indeed you are sustaining
ferals.

I'm currently deciding what to do with my beehives. Using the limited information I have available, it seems best to not be concerned what the origins of the bees are,

And just how are you reaching that conclusion..?.. from absorbing
discussion on USA and British forums?
Wrong boat mate, end of.
As A reality I can - and hundreds of other experienced Aussie b'keeps
with me - tell you that using feral swarms - queen intact - is going to see
you up that proverbial creek in that traditonal barbwire canoe.

You have not yet twigged I am not (yet) arguing the USA thrust in the
thread for what some see as VD resistant 'genetics', but you do seem
to think that argument applies to your yard. It does not, far from it.

and instead to focus on how well the bees are actually performing. To squish the queens that are from aggressive, or low performing hives, and to split from hives that show the highest productivity.
 

Hey yeah.. but what base knowledge are you using to judge?
Like you have said you are working at night, well.. hello, Aussie bees will
get most aggressive at night, particularly in true summers.
Then you tell us you haven't been near one yard in five weeks, well,
again...hello, how could you know anything about that yard? Your best
producer may well have been robbed out, you would not know.

I could buy some queens from breeders, create some sort of breeding nuc(s) and then replace all of my queens with these. If I did this, any future swarms that I capture I can replace their queen with one of my bred queens so I'd not have any swarmed queens. I'm not sure what the advantages, and disadvantages of doing so would be.

You could be sure if you had a plan to begin with. The number of colonies
you are running, and so the time you have spent doing so, all amount to
nought as productive beekeeping when you cannot even say for sure which
of your 21colonies are true ferals... 'cos those are the ones you could be
posting about in your original question. A question which oddly enough
focuses on growth of more unknowns in doing splits.

Find out if you actually have true ferals and squish those to begin your
new plan... or a plan, any plan per se.

Bill

[omnimirage]

Maybe I'll have to reread over the thread. What's NP&WS?

Well, probably the information that's most swaying my decision, came from a lecture on genetics that I found on youtube. The lady doing the presentation said that she deems it silly when people who, have aggressive "evil" bees, ask for her to do a test on them to confirm whether they're Africanized. She said that, in this case it doesn't matter what genes the bees have, if they're aggressive and evil then they're aggressive and evil. I'm applying this to my circumstances to mean that, if my bees are performing well and demonstrating positive qualities, then whether they're feral or not is irrelevant, because they have the traits that I'm looking for. I recognise that a lot of this discussion isn't relevant to my circumstances and that it's a lot different here in South Australia. I've got it a lot easier, from what I'm gathering.

Knowledge that I've picked up mostly from forums and youtube, so a limited amount.

I've been working with these bees for years now. Unfortunately, in my primary yard I didn't document which hives were which, and so in the confusion of changing apiary sites, I no longer know which bees are which. I noticed back then, that some of the hives just perform better than others, and some are more aggressive than others. Since there is uncertainty with these bees, I am unsure how to proceed with it, but there are some hives that seem to just be doing quite well whereas many others are in question. I have another site which I've been working on for years and have gotten familiar with the bees. Out of all those, there's two hives that I can say with a reasonable amount of confidence that they're both quite productive and gentle. One of them I can say with a decent amount of confidence that they're quite aggressive and mean. And it was five months, not five weeks, and that site just had two swarms that I captured two springs ago and I'm not familiar with them and I check on my other bees more regularly.

I need to have an idea of the advantages and disadvantages before I can construct a plan. Why does it all amount to nought? I cannot say for sure if any of the 28 hives are ferals or not. Heck, even the swarms I captured could have came from a beekeeper. Yes, I started thinking about this due to desiring to split colonies, which has got me exploring the genetic side of beekeeping. And I have no way of determining whether any of my 28 hives are "true ferals", or not. How would I know? What is a true feral beehive?

[eltalia]

Maybe I'll have to reread over the thread. What's NP&WS?

National Parks & Wildlife Service.

You have missed or are ignoring a most relevant point I made earlier.
Feral bees are aggressive to other bees on the forage, to the point
it is believed they are responsible for examples of our native flora to
go extinct. How a feral colony behaves for you is irrelevant.

Bill

[Michael Bush]

>Telescope is Latin meaning tele (distance) scope (to view) so how in the heck is this lid referred to as a TELESCOPING lid.

Things often get more than one step removed from the original.  Telescope, of course was a device to see things far away.  Since most of them were very long they were cumbersome to carry.  Someone figure out that if you made multiple tubes of slightly smaller dimensions and put them together inside each other, you could make a long telescope very short to carry.  So the word telescope also came to mean when something fits inside of something else...  We have tons of these in English. Some even more steps removed... Why is the sound of someone passing gas a "raspberry"?  It has to do with cockney rhyming slang.  "Raspberry tart" rhymes with "fart" so "Raspberry" becomes "fart".  "Bread and honey" rhymes with "money" so "bread" becomes "money".

[Hops Brewster]

Bwallace, I know what you are saying about settlers bringing bees from Europe is true, but I'm just trying to imagine how they were able to transport a bunch of bees on a sailing ship for voyages of months, then jostle them over makeshift roads to wherever they were going without major problems -- with the bees and with fellow passengers.  Maybe they were VERY gentle bees.

By the time colonists began importing bees they had winds and trade routes figured out enough that trans-Atlantic voyages lasted 'only' a matter of weeks.  I think it would be a simple thing to transport colonies during the winter when bees were clustered.  After that, most road trips were relatively short.  The colonies remained close to the sea for decades.  There are exceptions, of course. 
Domestic colonies would have begun casting swarms the first year.  One thing bees do well is multiply.

Transporting European bees to Australia would have been a daunting task, though.  Now that's a voyage that took months in the sailing days.  When did A. Melifera reach Australia?