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Author Topic: Supersedure  (Read 480 times)

Offline 220

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Supersedure
« on: October 21, 2017, 04:37:12 pm »
Looks like one of my hives isn't happy with their queen, found 3 queen cells yesterday when I was inspecting. Each was on a different  frame about half way up the frame and a third off the way across the frame. One was already capped the other 2 still open. Spring here and my hives are just starting to build up but I don't think they are swarm cells, this hive seems to lagging behind my others and isn't even filling 8 frames.
They may well have been thinking about it for some time as when we had a warm spell late Autumn they built a couple of cells but then pulled them down.

Will let them run their course and see what happens but it leaves me with a couple of questions.
What happens to the existing queen in a supersedure, will she leave and they swarm anyway, will she continue in the existing hive making it a 2 queen hive?
Should I leave all 3 cells or would I be better off using the frames 1 or 2 are on to create a couple of nucs?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 04:56:13 pm by 220 »

Offline iddee

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Re: Supersedure
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2017, 04:51:13 pm »
The old queen may be allowed to stay for awhile, making it a 2 queen hive, but she will eventually be disposed of.

You will get several answers about removing some cells or not. I usually leave them. I figure the bees knows which is the better cells much more than I do. They will choose the one they want to keep.
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Offline Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Supersedure
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2017, 04:55:30 pm »
In most cases involving a supersedure the bees will ball (kill) the old queen.  Balling a queen: when many bees surround the queen, I mean completely surround the queen to form a ball.  The bees hold on tight in this ball, that the ball can be picked up and the bees will not let go of the queen.  The bees cut off air to the queen and generate heat, essentially slow killing the queen.  Why not just sting the old queen to death?  I am not sure the answer is known to that simple question?
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Offline cao

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Re: Supersedure
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2017, 05:25:38 pm »
IMHO Any time I see queen cells on more than one frame, my first thought is there is an opportunity to make a split.  If you got the resourses(hives) to steal a frame or two of honey and/or brood from,  then why not take a chance on making a nuc. 

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Supersedure
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2017, 06:17:06 pm »
I'm with Iddee. You will probably have a 2 queen hive laying side by side. If there are enough bees they can rebuild this hive quickly.
About 20 percent of hives will have mother daughter queens at some point.
Jim
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Offline Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Supersedure
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2017, 06:26:28 pm »
Mr. Jim, do you mean 2 queen hive in the spring???

Offline Nico

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Re: Supersedure
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2017, 06:37:31 pm »
I had a swarm yesterday, They were  about 20 feet from the hive on a low branch. I dropped them into a spare box and went to get a tie-down for the lid while the stragglers were going in, when I got back they were boiling out and swarmed onto a  branch about 25 feet up.
I set up a box under the tree but I think that is wishful thinking.
Nico   

Offline Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Supersedure
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2017, 07:50:27 pm »
Nico, this time of year is your spring?  So swarming is normal.  Is that correct?
Sorry the swarm got away from you.
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Supersedure
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2017, 08:46:12 pm »
Mr. Jim, do you mean 2 queen hive in the spring???
No, any time there are drones available for mating. For me, that was 2 weeks ago, my OH queen came back to the hive with mating sign still attached. I saw lots of drones in my flow hive today.
Jim
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Offline 220

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Re: Supersedure
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2017, 08:58:31 pm »
Nico, this time of year is your spring?  So swarming is normal.  Is that correct?

You are correct, although given Nico's location of North Queensland seasons are more hot or very hot and wet or dry.
2000 miles south the temps I am experiencing in mid spring are still significantly colder than what he experiences mid winter.
So far this month we are averaging 4c (40f) min and 20c (68f) max, for comparison the coldest ever monthly average temps for Cairns in North Queensland is a min of 14.4c (58f) (July 1982) and max 19.6c (67f) (Aug 2010) the records go back almost 100 years. The lowest temp ever recorded is 6.2c (43f) back in June 1946.


Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Supersedure
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2017, 10:23:02 am »
>What happens to the existing queen in a supersedure, will she leave and they swarm anyway, will she continue in the existing hive making it a 2 queen hive?

"You never can tell with bees."--Winnie the Pooh.  Odds are they will have two queens laying for a short time and then the old one will dissapear.  Other things sometimes happen.  Sometimes the old queen is dispatched before the new queen emerges.  Sometimes the old queen wanders off because they don't feed her anymore.

>Should I leave all 3 cells or would I be better off using the frames 1 or 2 are on to create a couple of nucs?

I leave them alone in a supersedure.  Some of those may not emerge...

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Offline little john

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Re: Supersedure
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2017, 11:18:19 am »
I had a swarm yesterday, They were  about 20 feet from the hive on a low branch. I dropped them into a spare box and went to get a tie-down for the lid while the stragglers were going in, when I got back they were boiling out and swarmed onto a  branch about 25 feet up.
I set up a box under the tree but I think that is wishful thinking.
Nico

Hi Nico - if they're still there when you get to read this - it might be worth throwing a line over the nearest branch to them.  (Use a bow and arrow, if needs be)  Then hoist an open brood frame up to as near the swarm as possible.  They usually then cluster around the frame  - but no guarantees ...

Providing you've attached another line to help pull it down again ('cause sometimes the weight of the swarm isn't enough to overcome friction) - with luck and a following wind - you should then be able to recover the swarm.
'best
LJ
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Offline Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Supersedure
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2017, 09:23:51 pm »
Hey Sir Lil John:  now that is a good idea, I mean make the swarm come to you,,,,, using a brood frame as an attraction.  Never heard that one, makes perfect sense.

I realize nurse bees have a very strong attraction to brood and I use that brood attraction to prevent absconding when introducing bees to a new home.  My experience is the nurse bees will tend to the brood and if necessary will give there life for the babies.  I have never seen nurse bees abandon brood, although I am sure this event has happened.
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