wintering bees

[beehappy1950]

Was just wondering if anybody has found any sure fire way to winter bees in cold climates and what percentage of survival you had.I am going with the housing differences between north and south. 3 quarter in. lumber might be alright for the south but I think northern beehives should be heavier. So I have built hive boxes out of 2xs and 2 thicknesses and yes they are heavy. Will see how that turns out. Like to hear comments. Harold

[little john]

Hi Harold

If you do an Internet Archive search for "Beekeeping", and any of these names: "Pellet, Philips, Killion", you'll come across their books which contain details of the 'Packing Case' method of over-wintering which used to be favourite in the Northern States in years gone by.  I've absolutely no idea whether it's a method still used today.

Basically, what those guys did was to butt-up together a pair of hives (sometimes blocks of four or six), and build a packing case around them from flat-pack, leaving a space all around them which they then filled with straw or similar. Same arrangement at the top.

The advantage with this method is that you can maintain a hive with uninsulated walls during the summer - so that the bees can respond more quickly to variations in temperature - and yet have a highly insulated and more thermally stable hive during the winter months.  This might be a technique worth considering ?

Mike Palmer (Vermont) wraps his hives in black 'felt paper' - you can see his technique (and much more) in a video "Keeping Bees in Frozen North America":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFanJbaigM4 

Well worth watching, as too are all his other videos.

LJ

[beehappy1950]

This speaker will put you to sleep. But he does have a lot of info. Thanks little john.

[splitrock]

1" high density Styrofoam on top, felt paper wrap, and I had 90% make it  over winter last year.

[beehappy1950]

I can only hope for that percentage. Good to hear splitrock. Harold

[cao]

Was just wondering if anybody has found any sure fire way to winter bees in cold climates and what percentage of survival you had.

I don't think there is a sure fire way.  I insulate the top with 1-1/2" styrofoam.  And more importantly, make sure they have enough honey stored.  If not, I add a 1" shim and add sugar bricks.  Last year heading into winter I had 23 hives.  Lost 2 during the winter(very weak nucs(one was an august swarm)) and one in the spring after a week long cold snap after they started raising brood.  Going into winter this year I have 40 hives.  Hopefully I can get similar results.

[beehappy1950]

cao, dont think you are exactly northern but I suppose a cold spell can still get you. good luck

[gww]

I don't know if indiana is considered cold. I am in MO and I considered illinois and indiana as cold.  I lived in Kokomo IN for 3.5 years and my first year there was snow on the fround from the first snow till around march.  2010 I think.  It would melt down to close to being gone and then it would snow again.  I admit the next two years were not as bad but still about a ten degree differrance then MO.  I do admit that my uncle had some pretty awsome pictures of north dakota though.
Cheers.
gww

[beehappy1950]

gww, I live in Minnesota but I drove truck out of ND for years. I always thought it was colder there than here. Probably no trees out west to cut the wind down. We get some years that it dont get above 10 below for a month at a time. I think thats what kills off a lot of bees. Also not getting a cleansing flight for 90 to 120 days most years. We had a nice winter last year tho. Hope this ones the same. Harold

[Peter McDowell]

Between my brother and myself we have 5 hives. We built them ourselves and insulated them completely with 2" rigid foam board. Basically they are std Langstroth medium boxes with 2" foam on the outside and another layer of wood outside of that, sort of a foam sandwich. They are heavier but not unmanageable. The base and roof also have a 2" foam layer. The cost of materials to build them came out to about double the cost of buying a standard setup. I know that will make lost of people howl in complaint, but we figure the extra cost will pay off in us not losing hives to the cold or heat. The only two downsides we have seen is that it is more difficult to add boxes without squishing bees and they swarm very early. This setup keeps them warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer. Bearding in the summer no longer occurs since we converted to the insulated hives. Last winter on a 10 deg.F day I measured the inside temp with a digital thermometer and it was 97 deg.F

[gww]

peter
If it is working for you great.  Way back at the turn of the century, abby warre wrote a book on his hive called "The peoples hive".

http://www.users.callnetuk.com/~heaf/beekeeping_for_all.pdf

He took a much differrent position on why thinner boards were good.
Cheers
gww

[Peter McDowell]

Easy for him to say, he didn't have to live in it. I will believe thin walled hives are the best thing for bees when I hear it from someone who lives at my lattitude (-30degC in winter to +30degC in summer) that lives in a house made from 3/4" pine with no vapor barrier or insulation.

[gww]

You aught to put your location on your profile so a guy could look and judge what you say added in with where you say it from.  Like I said, if it works for you great.  I like hearing about things that seem to work.
Cheers
gww

[Acebird]

3 quarter in. lumber might be alright for the south but I think northern beehives should be heavier.

I buy 7/8 and I have built 5/4.  In my area I don't need to insulate the sides in winter but if I did adding foam board to the outside is simple enough.  Normally you try to winter in the same size configuration so the foam boards can be cut the same size and used every year.  If I were to do this I would glue 1/4 spacers to the inside of the foam board.  I know you would lose some heat but you wouldn't trap moisture between the hive walls and the foam board.  You don't need the spacers on the top foam board and I don't use any for the top of my hives.  Some people north of me wrap their hives in tar paper but leave a gap between the paper and the hive.  I don't wrap my hives.

[Psparr]

For what it's worth, I put quilt boxes on my hives. For years I hadn't lost any hives, once due to a branch falling on one and knocking off the top box.
Last year I lost 10 out of the 12 hives I had. Six of those were in the fall though.

[gww]

Pspar
Can you give a little more info on why you lost ten out of twelve?  How many years are we talking of good before the bad.  Since I am kinda a bee haver more then a bee keeper, I am trying to brace myself ha, ha.
Thanks
gww

[Acebird]

Gww there are commercial beekeepers that have worked bees for 30-40 years who have suffered major loses, 50% or more.  When it is your turn it is your turn.  Let's suppose you were a vegetable farmer and always grew the same tomatoes the same way and along comes a blight one year and you harvest nothing.  That could be what makes you turn in the towel.  This is where being big covers your butt.

[gww]

Ace
I read millers book 50 years with the bees and he lost down to nothing.  I am pretty sure langstroth lost most all.  Or maby it was doolittle.  I langstoth in his book considered a differrent bee keeper a good bee keeper due to that bee keeper building up to a big hive number for an almost total loss.  I still would be interested in hearing psparrs story.  I am sure it will hurt when I get my turn.  I ain't tripping on it (probly won't like it though).
Cheers
gww

[little john]

Those were pre-Varroa days of course - the arrival of Varroa has changed everything.
(SHB too, I'm sure - luckily some of us have been spared that one ... for now)
LJ

[BeeMaster2]

In Langstroth's time, they were losing large numbers of hives to Wax Moths. Today, we just consider them a cleanup crew of weak hives. They thought the moths were the most devistating thing in the bee world. Then it was Trachea mites, we don't treat for them any more. I would bet if everyone stopped treating for varroa mites they would be a minor nuisance also.
Jim