Keep Queen-Cells vertical ?

[little john]

This happens without fail every single year ... just as the Queen-Rearing season comes to an end I find something Queen-Rearing-related that I'd really like to try out.  This year it's this "keeping Queen-Cells vertical" business.

Like almost all other beekeepers I guess, my Queen Cells are always kept vertical - religiously so. Why ? Because that's what I've always been advised to do.  Here are a couple of links which feature this mantra:
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/inducedsupersedure.html
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/celltransport.html

I've never questioned this ... that is, until today.  As it was raining (yet again) yesterday I was indoors watching a video about Queen-Rearing in Nepal, and was amazed to see a guy insert Queen Cells into home-made cages, and then place them horizontally onto frame top-bars until the virgins emerged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA0dnwtDaUw

There are two slight 'wrinkles' here: one is that these queens are Cerana (but does this matter ?), and the second was that he doesn't say how old those Queen Cells were.  But, it's certainly got me thinking.

Here's another example from another of his videos, where he's inserted grafted Q/C's into home-made queen-cages ... again, horizontally.



I half-remember seeing a Youtube video where one guy regularly transported his Q/C's on their sides, inside a box lined with cotton-wool.  And I've just stumbled across a FatBeeMan video where he cuts out Q/C's with the frame upside-down.  And - if you think about this - it's only swarm cells which are truly vertical anyway - the others are half-vertical and half-horizontal.

So - does anyone have any definitive info on what would happen if a Queen Cell were laid on it's side throughout it's metamorphosis ? Scientific paper or w.h.y. ?  If not, I'll be putting this to the test sometime next year.

Beekeeping ... don't you just love it ?
LJ

[eltalia]

Never given orientation much thought LJ, so off the top of my head I reckon "why not".
It is the larval stage that feeds, so I'd reckon that during pupation -  which has the head
at the leaving end - it follows all food has been consumed leaving no liquid for the pupae
to drown in, and a gravity assisted leaving/birthing. Also has credibilty in finding some
virgin queens of petite stature in the same rearing birthing first, their feeding regime was
less than the further developed queens one selects for.
So, given the emerging queen chews her way out, and has the benefit of front legs to
drag the body with, I cannot see why not go horizontal.
It's likely just another thing we beekeepers have been told by mentors to accept blindly?
"Have faith, de Lawd will deliver" type thing : grins:

Cheers.

Bill

[Michael Bush]

>does anyone have any definitive info on what would happen if a Queen Cell were laid on it's side throughout it's metamorphosis

According to Huber it will develop normally as will a worker in  horizontal position.

"When the end of their metamorphosis approaches, they are only two lines (11/64th in. or 4mm) from the orifice of the cell.  The position which they assume is always the same; they are bent in an arc.  It follows that, in the horizontal cells, such as those of the workers or of drones, the larvae are perpendicular to the horizon; on the contrary, in the royal cells, the worms are placed horizontally.  It might be thought that the difference of position has great influence on the increment of the various larvae, yet it has none.  By reversing combs containing common cells of brood, I brought the worms to a horizontal position, but they did not suffer in their development.  I have also turned the royal cells so that their worms were placed vertically and their growth was neither less speedy nor less perfect."Francis Huber, New Observations on Bees, Vol I, Eighth letter.

http://bushfarms.com/huber.htm#eggtoadult

[little john]

Thanks very much Michael - it doesn't get much more definitive than Huber. 

And - of course - ordinary workers and drones develop horizontally - so why should queens be significantly different ?  That now begs the question - where on earth did this "must keep vertical" mantra originate ?

Thanks again.
LJ

[Michael Bush]

>where on earth did this "must keep vertical" mantra originate ?

It probably should have been "you should always be gentle with queen cells and this is even more important if they are not vertical"  The problem with not being gentle while not being vertical is this is the most likely way you end up damaging wing buds of the queen.

[BeeMaster2]

Good post LJ. Thanks Michael.
I have always heard and passed on the same info.
Jim

[little john]

Thanks Jim.  I'm so pleased at the outcome of this thread (thanks again to MB) as I've been working with natural queen-cells this year, only to discover that there aren't any really good methods of protecting them.  That is, until now.

The problem stems from the wedge of comb that's cut away with the queen-cell - this is done by hand and so the size and shape always varies - and so unlike queen-cells drawn from discrete cups, they tend not to fit very easily into Nicot or similar hair-roller cages.

A couple of years ago I made a rack holding over-sized cages for this very purpose:



but have only used it for the first time this year.  The plan was to insert the cell and hold it in place near the top with toothpicks/cocktail-sticks pushed through the cage holes - but what a hassle that turned out to be.

Now I can simply gently insert the q/cell into the cage - placed on it's side - without needing to secure the cell at all.  And following emergence, hoik(*) the wax cell out leaving the virgin behind.
Then - cage top on, place into rack, place rack into the box, banking up to 16 (far more than I can envisage ever needing) virgins at a time.  And by 'banking', I mean for just a few days - no more than that, until I can find homes for them.

Brilliant.  Good forum this.
LJ

(*) Hoik - British slang.  To grab and lift up without due care, in order to throw something out.  A bit like spitting (NZ useage).

[eltalia]

Thanks Jim.  I'm so pleased at the outcome of this thread (thanks again to MB) as I've been working with natural queen-cells this year, only to discover that there aren't any really good methods of protecting them.  That is, until now.

Indeed LJ... for myself some doors opened as options to consider _after_
setting  capped QCell. The enlightenment being orientation of natural build
is only down to space available - QCells completed are too long to be built
horizontally.
I will be taking the 'gww Principle' in my selection of QCell parking in that
the teabag option is my intention, placing a few under a pushcage.

Yeh, we (old school) use "hoik" as you explain, with modernism dropping the
word for "chuck" or "toss". Both of those create new confusion.

Cheers.


Bill

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

What a post.  Many of my favorite folks/beeks on this topic.  I was thinking, all queens cells originate verticle that I have seen, every single one.  So, to me there is a reason the bees do this.

Consider the newly hatched larva in a sea of royal jelly.  If the larva is less dense than the jelly, then the larva in verticle position would float through the jelly cutting off the air supply to the larva.  In contrast if the larva is more dense, then in verticle position the larva would remain on the surface maintaining exposure to air.  In time the larva is capped and pupates and is large enough, strong enough to maintain exposure to air. 

So newly hatched eggs, baby larva, would appear susceptible to position.  This is my opinion, although density is fact, I do not know but am GUESSING day old larva are more dense than royal jelly simply because the verticle larva underneath the jelly do not float into the jelly and die.

I have not studied Huber(sp) as mentioned by Mr. Bush and noted by Sir Lil John as authority. Comments, corrections would be appreciated.
Blessings

[BeeMaster2]

Van,
Larvae hatch on day 3 and royal jelly is added to the cell the larvae are half in the jelly. Half of the spiracles are submerged in the jelly. If the bees want to make a queen from a larvae in a horizontal cell the fill the cell with royal jelly and float the larvae to the edge and build the cell downward. The larvae started out horizontal and then allowed to develop vertical.
Jim

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Thank you Jim.  I have never seen a horizontal queen cell, until now, I did not know such exists.  Always learning new things here.
Blessings

[Michael Bush]

I don't know what is available there but I put queen cells in these:

https://www.mannlakeltd.com/hair-roller-cages-100-pack
with these on top:
https://www.mannlakeltd.com/candy-cup-closure

The candy cup closure has quit a bit of room in it and fits onto the top of hair roller cage.  The cell should fit down into the hole on the candy cup closure.  Mine from plastic cell cups drop right in, so I think any typical queen cell should fit and there is quite a bit of extra space at the top.  I don't know if similar things are available in the UK.

[Asia-Off-Grid]

Hi Little John,

I was indoors watching a video about Queen-Rearing in Nepal, and was amazed to see a guy insert Queen Cells into home-made cages, and then place them horizontally onto frame top-bars until the virgins emerged.

If you were referring to the video in your original post, that guy is a Khmer (Cambodian). He lives about 3 hours from me, in Siem Reap, Cambodia.

[little john]

Hi Paul - I think you could do a lot worse than make personal contact with that guy if that's possible - he clearly knows how to work with your local bees.   He has quite a few videos on YouTube which may be of interest to you (assuming you haven't already found them).  I particularly like the one where he makes hive catches from bicycle spokes !
'best
LJ

[Asia-Off-Grid]

Hi Paul - I think you could do a lot worse than make personal contact with that guy if that's possible - he clearly knows how to work with your local bees.   He has quite a few videos on YouTube which may be of interest to you (assuming you haven't already found them).  I particularly like the one where he makes hive catches from bicycle spokes !

I'm going to SR on Monday, actually. I am going to try to meet up with him, if possible, during my trip.