Advice Needed, Bit Confused!

[PhilK]

G'day,

We set up three nucs into 10 frame deep brood boxes late in the season (around April, going into our autumn). They have been slowly building and we've been leaving them to it because we didn't want to bug them too much in winter.

About three weeks ago an inspection showed them to be going well but having more or less empty foundation at spaces 1 and 10. Honey at 2 and 9. We swapped them around hoping they'd build the foundation out a little.

Inspected again today and all three hives had not touched the outside frames at all - honey remained, but foundation either minimally drawn or not drawn at all. The drawn comb that is now in 1 and 10 didn't have much action at all.

What is strange, and is confusing me a little, is that they have built honeycomb on top of the bars and into the lid - the comb spans from about frame 4 to 8. It's beautiful fresh white wax and it's packed full of honey. Brood inspections show there is brood surrounded by a good amount of honey.

I assume the season (winter) has caused brood rearing to slow down so we have a smaller brood nest, but there is obviously a flow going. Why have they built comb over their frames but not touched the foundation frames?

Didn't know what to do, so removed the wild comb. Heading back tomorrow to put supers on. Good idea? Bad idea?

[little john]

I really don't understand how bees are able to draw the comb you describe over brood frames.  Above those frames should be either a covering of some sort - a plastic sheet, hessian, canvas, oilcloth or similar, placed directly on the frame top bars - or, more usually - a crown board or inner cover made from plywood or similar, with a beespace between that board and the frame top-bars.

In either case, there should be insufficient space there in which comb can be drawn.  So - how that's been allowed to happen is something of a mystery (to me). 

But the reason that bees draw honey comb over their brood - is because that's what bees do - that is, whenever they are given the opportunity to do so.  Here's a shot of a De Layens frame, which as you can see is an extra deep frame - a lovely example of a circular brood nest, with honey stores above:




Now as the modern trend is to install oblong shaped frames into beehives, if you divide that extra-deep frame into three oblong frames, the upper third becomes honey, and the two lower thirds become a divided brood nest - which roughly equates to a double brood box with a super over.  But here, it's all on one frame - demonstrating that this is pretty-much the natural layout of a honey-bee's comb.  So your bees are behaving quite naturally.


Ok - moving on to the frames themselves.  One of the key lessons for any beekeeper to learn is that bees will do what they want to do, when they want to do it, not when the beekeeper wants it to happen.  This is particularly true of drawing comb.

Now the exact reason why they didn't draw out combs 1 and 10 needn't concern us - it might be that the nights are too cold and those combs are furthest away from the heat of the colony, or it might be that they consider 8 combs are all that they need at this moment - but the fact remains that they have decided NOT to draw those combs out yet, and trying to force them (as you've found out) just doesn't work.  So I suggest you put those frames back as they were ...

A 10-frame deep box is a big cavity for a nuc to build-up in - they have showed you that it's too big, by not drawing-out frames 1 and 10 - so I'm fairly confident when saying that putting a super on top will only make the situation worse, and not improve it.

Be guided by the bees - they know what they want, and constantly give us clues.  The trick is to observe what they're doing and interpret it as correctly as humanly possible.  We don't always get it right of course - that's called gaining experience the hard way.
LJ

[PhilK]

I really don't understand how bees are able to draw the comb you describe over brood frames.  Above those frames should be either a covering of some sort - a plastic sheet, hessian, canvas, oilcloth or similar, placed directly on the frame top bars - or, more usually - a crown board or inner cover made from plywood or similar, with a beespace between that board and the frame top-bars.

In either case, there should be insufficient space there in which comb can be drawn.  So - how that's been allowed to happen is something of a mystery (to me). 

It's not that much of a mystery - we don't have an inner cover of any sort. We never have.. when we got our hives they all just came with a brood box and a lid. We have bee escapes at home, we could try putting those on between the brood box and lid?

A 10-frame deep box is a big cavity for a nuc to build-up in - they have showed you that it's too big, by not drawing-out frames 1 and 10 - so I'm fairly confident when saying that putting a super on top will only make the situation worse, and not improve it.

We had them in 5 frame nuc boxes first but they were too full for them, so we moved them into 10 frame deeps when they had 5 frames packed with bees etc.

Thanks for the reply! So you would suggest not adding a super, but putting on an inner cover of some type? I'm worried they'll run out of space and swarm if they aren't touching the outside frames.. but as you said, I don't want to give them a 10 frame deep empty super because that's a huge amount of space

[Nico]

Philk, For an inner cover a plastic queen excluder, a piece of linoleum or even a piece of insect screen on top of the frames will stop the building above the frames. I too have found the bees reluctant to draw out frames 1 and 10
Nico

[little john]

Thanks for the reply! So you would suggest not adding a super, but putting on an inner cover of some type? I'm worried they'll run out of space and swarm if they aren't touching the outside frames.. but as you said, I don't want to give them a 10 frame deep empty super because that's a huge amount of space

Hello Phil - as Nico has said, a sheet of something placed on top of the frames is the answer.  I used to use plywood crown boards, but I'm gradually moving over to thick plastic sheeting (ex storm-damaged polytunnel covers).

I understand your concern about swarming - there is a possible compromise you could adopt, by the use of 'dummies' inside a super, to reduce the additional space given to a minimum. 
Now dummy frames are usually made to look like regular frames, but with thin plywood sheets tacked onto each side - their purpose being simply to occupy the space normally taken up by frames.  They can be made in 1, 2, or 3-frame thicknesses.  There are some examples on the Dave Cushman site.

Alternatively, (and this is what I've done from time to time) take a cardboard box and cut it down to roughly the same size as (say) 3 or 4 frames.  Make two, then wrap them in plastic sheet, and tape down the seams well.  Then simply place these inside your super, lying on top of the brood box frame top-bars, and leaving a central space between them for 2 or perhaps 3 frames.  Then the bees can draw comb in that central reduced space, and you can keep an eye on how things develop, and progressively enlarge the space as needed.  Don't forget to place your plastic sheet, or whatever you're going to use for an inner cover on top of the upper box.

In practice the bees will propolise those boxes onto the frame top-bars below them, but as the boxes are wrapped in plastic, they'll break away easily.

Hope that's of some help.
LJ

[PhilK]

Thanks!

Pressed for time today and my local hardware didn't have any vinyl/linoleum. Ended up popping the escape boards on between the brood box and the lid, so hopefully that will help a little...

[little john]

Don't forget to tape-over the holes on the underside of the excape board.


Here's an example of what I was talking about re: a QD (Quick 'n' Dirty) method of reducing the volume of a box:



In this case I'd run out of frames, but rather than tie-up 2 nuc boxes (one of which could then be blanked-off), I installed a dummy board next to five stores frames, and filled the remaining space with a 'wrapped box' as described in my last post.

Very crude - but it does the job !
LJ

[Acebird]

Why have they built comb over their frames but not touched the foundation frames?

Because there is more heat above and that makes it easier for them.  I would say don't worry about frame 1 and 10.  Put another box on and blank out the outsides so there is just a few frames in the center like LJ suggested.

[Wombat2]

Off the top of my head - Its winter (even in Queensland) - too much bee space to keep warm - too cold on the outside frames - flow is not big enough to bother storing but rather use for immediate consumption to create heat they - hadn't enough time to build enough stores before the colder weather.

[PhilK]

Yeah I would say the outside frames were left undrawn because of the cold, and they made comb above the brood nest because it was warmer Experienced beek I asked said they may be trying to insulate themselves by building comb above the brood. Will see how the escape boards go - that should provide some insulation.
I don't really want to open it to check it again.

I didn't tape the bee exits up, is this going to be a problem?

[Wombat2]

Leaving your run a bit late - forecast for next week or the week after is shaping up to remove surplus honey from the supers and lift honey and pollen out of the brood box to give the queen room to start ramping up laying ready for spring

[PhilK]

Already Wombat? So in the next couple of weeks start ramping up for spring - free up space in the brood box and supers?
Wait for a while before making splits?

[Flycaster]

A tip shop would probably have some old sheets of Lino, or even one of the flooring shops should have some off cuts.

I use off cuts left over from the bathroom 😀

[Wombat2]

Already Wombat? So in the next couple of weeks start ramping up for spring - free up space in the brood box and supers?
Wait for a while before making splits?

The bees will be building numbers once it starts to warm - looking for consecutive days around 22 or more. They will consume a lot of honey during build up so don't split yet - wait till numbers increase and honey is coming in faster than they are eating it. Just help them by making room to expand and the queen can lay. but watch air space -too much and they cant keep it warm.

[Cuttingedge]

Don't forget to tape-over the holes on the underside of the excape board.


Here's an example of what I was talking about re: a QD (Quick 'n' Dirty) method of reducing the volume of a box:



In this case I'd run out of frames, but rather than tie-up 2 nuc boxes (one of which could then be blanked-off), I installed a dummy board next to five stores frames, and filled the remaining space with a 'wrapped box' as described in my last post.

Very crude - but it does the job !
LJ

Little John, what are you using for inner covers?

[little john]

In that shot, the plastic sheet which is folded back came from a storm-damaged polytunnel - it's fairly thick stuff.  Some people use woven feed sacks.
'best
LJ

[tjc1]

Ummm - what's a polytunnel?

[little john]

Ummm - what's a polytunnel?

Perhaps these are called by a different name on the other side of the pond ?
LJ

[Dabbler]

TJC1 - Polytunnel - Think plastic sheeting from a Quonset hut type green house supported by metal hoops.

[little john]

Yes - it's a 'tunnel' used mainly for growing vegetables (although some farmers have started using them as sheep shelters), made from steel tubes, with a UV-resistant polythene sheet stretched over them.  Hence 'Polythene-Tunnel' - which abbreviates to polytunnel.

Mesh sides improve ventilation and help to keep the heat down - which can get very high indeed in summer.  People who work in them are frequently required to take salt tablets during the day.  They also come in shade colours, such as white and green - and even in black, for when growing mushrooms.

The covers (as the plastic sheets are called) normally last for around 3 or 4 seasons, depending upon  the quality of plastic initially installed.  I have one at the moment which is over 10 years old, but just beginning to fail.  When the covers do eventually fail (as they must), they present something of a headache for the growers, as recyclers don't want that type of plastic - so it's either burn 'em, land-fill ... or find another use for what's left.

So - find yourself a grower who uses polytunnels for a free supply of plastic sheet. 
LJ