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Author Topic: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?  (Read 6823 times)

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2019, 02:14:59 pm »
> I feel safe in assuming that you read the article yourself

I did, but I've read so much in so many places I don't remember exactly what Randy said that was different.  I do seem to remember he was in favor of flash treatments, which of course are not approved so therefore they are illegal (the label is the law).  But flash treatment makes the most sense to me as it would even out the effects of the ambient temperature.  It still has issues, in my opinion, but it fixes the biggest issues, which is control over the dosage.


Yes sir, I believe you are correct. At least that is kind of the way he explained it. He was definitely controlling the dosage during his experiment. With different dosages He obtained different results.
Mr Oliver also used other Types of treatments along with keeping charts on the effectiveness of each.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline minz

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Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2019, 05:02:58 pm »
I have a power point of the study and how to actually do the flash formic (as well as the details that are so important in this treatment) I was trying to send it to Ben but I can not figure it out.  The document is a pdf that is only 762 KB. Any suggestions on how to post it? I saved it as a JPG but each one printed to a separate file.
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Offline Live Oak

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Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2019, 07:55:20 pm »
You may want to read my post in another thread about using formic acid products.  Formic acid products of ANY kind are off my list of treatments.  Especially MAQS and Formic Pro.

Mr Live Oak, before you completely disregard formic, you may want to view this article by Randy Oliver, as posted here by minz. I admit that the treatment guidelines are very strict, but may be worth the extra effort in the long run? If you have time to study this please let me know your thoughts on this research. I value your opinion. That goes for everyone else.  If you have the time to read this research, your further opinions are appreciated.
Thanks, Phillip

://scientificbeekeeping.com/messin-with-varroa-2014/

I did read Randy's article.  Randy in my opinion leaned a bit towards sugar coating his results but the pictures of the Cluster$#@! that ensued after he applied the MAQS was more than enough for me to get the message. 

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/an-early-summer-test-of-mite-away-quick-strips/

Randy and many others who he kept in contact with had the same issues I did. 

If you want to kill you beehive and queens go ahead and use MAQS.  The recent experience I had was more than enough for me.  I am so angry off that I will probably NEVER buy ANYTHING from NOD again.........maybe even Mann Lake and Kelleys who sold me the MAQS. 

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2019, 03:35:44 pm »
He regularly would get banned for violation of the rules of conduct by being rude and condescending.  But I agree I miss his knowledge.

Mr Bush, I am just guessing, could it be that Finaki was misunderstood? When dealing with translations , it has been my experience that meanings can and do get twisted and misunderstood and sometimes lost. Translating languages by anyone less than an expert can dislodge the meaning of an Interpretation. This can sometimes be incorrect with what the speaker was trying to express. These misunderstood interpretations will continue to happen without an expert Interpreter. Wars may have been started by well meaning speakers only to have their translations totally misunderstood? just food for thought.
Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2019, 08:48:57 am »
It's a combination of cultural differences and language differences.  He was VERY blunt and sometimes insulting.  He was also pretty smart and experienced.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2022, 12:50:20 am »
Since my conversation with Robo concerning mites a few days ago,  I have spent time looking back at some old stuff here at Beemaster concerning the control of Varroa Mites. I thought I might bump this one for the benefit of any newer members who might not have had the opportunity. Also for the benefit of our friends from Australia who at this point do not have varroa to contend with. (and I hope they never do) As Nigel said on another topic, its not that complicated really.

The use of formic flash might be the the exception if not understood. The benefit of the 'formic flash treatment', according to reports, 'knocks' the socks off of them. It does the job in one day, not only on mites on the bees, but mites inside the caped brood area as well, which may be a tremendous advantage to saving a hive which might be in 'critical condition'.  And; It's organic....

Since this topics' post a few years ago, I have conversed with several folks from all over America as well as many others in other Countries, 'especially Germany', where the use of formic is regularly employed. And lets not forget the post here by Minz and his success using the 'formic flash method'.

I will caution just as Mr Live Oak the use of formic . For the reasons of his caution: This stuff 'must' to be used (properly) no matter the method
But to be clear, Formic Flash and MAQS are two different methods of use and is where Mr Live Oak and I had divided attention on our thoughts. He was still on Mite Away Quick Strips, the method he had used, where I had moved on to the Formic Flash Treatment. Mr Oliver did reiterate this form of treatment in the article I posted a few replies before, back then'.
Mr Live Oak must have missed that as he posted again of Randys' Mite Away Quick Strips article.... Which is also good (from reports), when 'strict' directions are 'followed', but to my knowledge, (I ever have used it), is not a one day treatment'.

I feel I finally found a 'formic flash formula' for treatment from a 'fellow', I think it was in Germany, which explained 'to the tee', how to use the flash treatment method and the proper dosage according to temperatures, which is to be calculated' on treatment day.. As tempature and dosage amount are again, critical and go hand in hand in his explanation,
I have been 'slowly' building my confidence to the point of trying it 'someday', just because.
So far I have restrained myself as I 'just' keep remembering Mr Live Oaks 'Warnings' on formic.  :cheesy: lol

I will need to go back and find this and it may take sometime as I have pages and pages of notes and not necessary in a particular order lol.

Phillip
« Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 03:34:41 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online NigelP

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Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2022, 04:17:30 am »

As results reported By Kamon Reynolds of Tennessee Bees, with an experimental hive this very season, very high in mite counts, even after continued use via oxalic alone did not get the job done.

When I used OA vaporisation via sublimox I would get an odd hive that stubbornly kept their mite levels high, whereas all around them were low. It still has me stumped why this occurs, but it would do so every year. One hive took 10 vapes to get the levels down....which I think is excessive. So Whenever I got one like this I would add miticide strips and save me time.
Now I just use miticide strips which saves me me even more time (but not money!) and the occasional high droppers after treatment get vaped  around midwinter solstice.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2022, 12:27:59 am »
I have a little something I would like to add which is a bit different from the Formic Flash Treatment than what I had been contemplating. Not saying I will try this just yet. (different for the one I was speaking of above).
I received the following message just today from a beekeeper from the Netherlands. We had both posted questions and suggestions on the latest Bob Binnie video comments concerning varroa mite treatment and the research being done via Mr Binnies' concern. I have studied several methods of Formic treatment and the one day Formic Flash Treatment has been the most appealing to me thus far when considering formic.

I am adding Rogier Dikkes of Netherlands reply to me, for your 'possible interest'. His method of formic flash is a 4 day cycle not a one day cycle.

From Rogier Dikkes of Netherlands.
"I use formic flash every summer after taking off the supers. It is very restricted in how to use it. Also we use different hives here in our area (simplex size). Also in our area (Netherlands) it is very common to use a varroa plank under the hive. Usually we leave this plank under the bottom to count mites, but I also use it to place the cleaning pads on them. All values I will now mention are in metric system.

From the supermarket I buy cleaning pads, their size is 20x20x.5cm. I drip 85% formic acid 10ml per box on them (we use double brood boxes by default because our simplex box sizes are smaller, so 2 boxes =20ml). Then I leave this pad there for 4 days. After 4 days you can repeat this treatment for 4 more rounds. I usually only do 2 because of the weather.

When temperature is too low or high (18-25c) you cannot treat. Too high: hives get killed, too low and no effect. Also humidity plays an important role. Last year I treated during a rainy period, I saw no notable mite drops and still saw DFW / mites on bees. Years before I saw drops of hundreds of mites.

If you use too much acid (once gave 30ml to a double box) the bees will panic and run out of the box. I'm pretty sure I lose 1 queen due to this. But in general queens stay laying and alive if you follow the guidelines.

I also have used Liebig dispensers, but I absolutely hate them. They released formic slowly, but after the treatment period I took them off and they were still dripping some residue in the box, on bees and on my clothes which were ruined since it burns holes right away. It is very scary stuff and if used improperly you can cause explosions, acid burns and breathing issues. It is however the most effective treatment when all parameters are right. But it leaves for such a short moment a year it is not the easiest way to treat.

Oh and before I forget: I always cool my formic acid in a freezer before opening it. This stuff at room temperature can knock you down if you do are not careful."
« Last Edit: February 28, 2022, 12:41:10 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2022, 12:33:03 am »

As results reported By Kamon Reynolds of Tennessee Bees, with an experimental hive this very season, very high in mite counts, even after continued use via oxalic alone did not get the job done.

When I used OA vaporisation via sublimox I would get an odd hive that stubbornly kept their mite levels high, whereas all around them were low. It still has me stumped why this occurs, but it would do so every year. One hive took 10 vapes to get the levels down....which I think is excessive. So Whenever I got one like this I would add miticide strips and save me time.
Now I just use miticide strips which saves me me even more time (but not money!) and the occasional high droppers after treatment get vaped  around midwinter solstice.

Nigel I am not saying this is the answer, but you might consider checking the Topic: "OAV too hot?"
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.