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Author Topic: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma  (Read 13871 times)

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2017, 04:00:38 pm »
>The problem is with the word "only" it could very well arm the dishonest.

You think dishonest people aren't armed?

> You have to ask yourself, are your valuables worth your life?

Well... I spent my life earning them, so they represent what part of my life I could accumulate.

>The last big hurricane that came through Miami flattened every house.  If you didn't leave you were either dead of very lucky.  No gun is going to save your valuables.

From looters?

> But if your guns are part of the wreckage then that is likely to put more of them in the hands of criminals.

I don't understand.  I don't think there are so many criminals that they are likely going through the wreckage looking for guns.

> If you are in an area that doesn't get hit hard and you are staying with your guns then that is a completely different scenario.  The Virgin Islands got decimated partly because their structures are not hurricane resistant.  Do you think the people in the Virgin Islands have their guns in a 2000 dollar safe.  Some of their houses aren't worth 2000.

You would be hard pressed to find a house in VI that isn't worth more than $40,000... I've priced them.

>Because they were designed with specific needs for the military.  They really don't have any advantage for protecting one's belongings.  I have been told they are "fun" to shoot.  Should manufacturers make dangerous weapons that coddle the fun gene?

The AR15 is the most popular gun in the US because it's modular and you can interchange parts and calibers and magazines.  Personally I don't find them appealing, but the reasons they are popular aren't because they are any more fun than a bolt action or a single shot or a muzzle loader.  If I were to try to buy a bolt action rifle or a single shot with interchangeable barrels in several calibers it would probably run me $10,000.  I could do the same with a AR15 and have a plinking gun, a deer rifle and a big game rifle for probably $3,000 or so and all of the ammo would fit the same magazine and the barrels would all fit the same gun.  If I could just resign myself to a semi auto, ugly,  plastic rifle, I could save a lot of money...  Also an AR15 is light and handy.  Good qualities when you have to haul it miles and miles over rough terrain.  The only guns I ever shot that were NOT fun were not fun because they were painful to shoot.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2017, 06:05:00 pm »
Ar15 (223) can be had in a single shot rifle. My buddy's kid hunts with one. Same with an ar10 (308) , very common hunting rifle for both youth and adults.

But now it is not military issue.  I would assume it does not accept a clip with 50 rounds in it.  I would assume it is not capable of shooting rounds that rip through steel or travel miles.  The intimidation doesn't really mean much because 50 cops coming after you will not be intimidated.  But if the gun is capable of spraying 50 rounds in a densely populated area like a school or an auditorium the intimidation is unacceptable.  I think this type of a weapon needs to be registered and the person licensed to operate it.  Second amendment or no second amendment.  You have to get a license to fish or hunt don't you?  Does that make you feel your rights are violated?
The second amendment does not give you the right to own a gun if you are a criminal or a psycho.  So prove you are not a criminal or a psycho to have these type of guns.  Why is that unreasonable?
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Offline iddee

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2017, 06:51:25 pm »
This is why disarming the citizen is totally wrong.

St.Thomas resident Mike Laplac on Monday said that looters are robbing residents using machetes and guns in the aftermath of Hurricane Irma pummeling the Caribbean island.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/2017/09/11/irma-looters-armed-with-machetes-in-u-s-virgin-islands.html
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Offline Psparr

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2017, 07:06:14 pm »
Fishing and hunting are NOT in the constitution. Therefore left to the states. Ace your making this too easy.

Offline Fishing-Nut

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2017, 07:27:17 pm »
The intimidating factor is in my opinion, the reason why anyone would want to place more control laws on guns. People who don't know guns. Like yourself, who's only ammunition is assumptions. You see, no sir, my buddy's kids rifle will not accept a "clip" (magazine) that will hold 50 rounds. But it will send that projectile down range for miles if it goes unobstructed, and it will accept rounds that will "rip through steel", as will any other high caliber rifle. On the other hand, the good people that I know who use there "military" weapons as hunting tools, well, there's will accept the large capacity magazines, I've never seen one for 50 rounds, just 30. Although I'm sure they have them. As I stated in my previous post, they are necessary for what they are being used for. As far as comparing this to hunting and fishing, well that's like comparing oil and water......but I'll give my opinion on it anyway. In a very very small way I do feel like my rights are violated in order to be forced to purchase a hunting and fishing license. Although, we are still protected with the right to forage and gather food. On the other hand, I support and fully understand what the department of natural resources does for the state of Georgia, through stocking programs, wildlife management, conservation and so on. Some of my license cost goes to those guys and funds the programs that make it possible for me to enjoy the woods and water as much as I do.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2017, 08:27:24 pm »
Ar15 (223) can be had in a single shot rifle.
The second amendment does not give you the right to own a gun if you are a criminal or a psycho.  So prove you are not a criminal or a psycho to have these type of guns.  Why is that unreasonable?

Ace,

Can you prove you are not a criminal or a psycho -- or a pervert?  How does one prove a negative, my friend!  An allegation must be proven, not the reverse.  That's the way our legal system is (supposed to) work(s).

Our hero Obama changed that to some degree, particularly on college campuses, where the allegation of sexual misconduct was tantamount to conviction.  The accused had no rights and the accuser could not be questioned.  I'm a lawyer by training and this garbage stinks.  Faculty on university campuses became the judges and jurors.  Why were these cases not turned over to the local police and courts, where due process applied.  I don't buy in to everything Trump is doing, but that's being corrected now, at least. 
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2017, 08:37:13 pm »
I have prosectuted more rape cases than you nan imagine, some so horrific they kept me awake at night.  But I have also defended allegations of rape based on a desire to skew divorce case property decisions by the court, or by malice.  And I don't recall losing one, including my last one, in which the judge told the prosecutor he had to prove the elements of the crime and, in the judge's words, " you haven't proven a Gxx daxxx thing".   

When you are able to prove a nagative, come talk to me.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline gww

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2017, 09:11:20 pm »
Dallas
Quote
Our hero Obama changed that to some degree, particularly on college campuses, where the allegation of sexual misconduct was tantamount to conviction.  The accused had no rights and the accuser could not be questioned.  I'm a lawyer by training and this garbage stinks.  Faculty on university campuses became the judges and jurors.  Why were these cases not turned over to the local police and courts, where due process applied.  I don't buy in to everything Trump is doing, but that's being corrected now, at least. 

But the trump administration has reinstated seisure laws where your stuff can be taken buy police as judge and jury with not court or defence involved.  Obama had stoped that practice.  How about laws that want to take your house because you rented it to some one and did not kick them out on just allegations that they were doing wrong making a private citizen into doing the polices job.  For every one good thing that any of the do they do two bad things.  In principle the siezure thing is the same as the rule change on campuses.
Cheers
gww

Offline Acebird

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2017, 09:14:25 pm »
The AR15 is the most popular gun in the US because it's modular and you can interchange parts and calibers and magazines.
You have the viewpoint of an old person.  If you ask a young person either in the military or recently out of the military they will tell you "it is fun to shoot".  It resembles a violent video game.  If what you said was true no one would own a musket loader or black powder gun.  These are guns that are fun to have but not fun to shoot.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 09:37:15 pm by Acebird »
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2017, 09:36:15 pm »
Ace,

Can you prove you are not a criminal or a psycho -- or a pervert?  How does one prove a negative, my friend!

Ohy vay, you are a lawyer?  Record of convictions, psychological testing, record or convictions.  If something changed after licensing you lose your license.  Kind of like driving a car.
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Offline Fishing-Nut

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2017, 10:15:04 am »
Did some posts get removed? This conversation isn't making much sense to me anymore. Serious question.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2017, 10:42:46 am »
>I would assume it is not capable of shooting rounds that rip through steel or travel miles.

Any high powered rifle will shoot through 1/4" of steel or travel miles (usually not both and not in that order).  Everything from a .223 Rem to a .458 Win Mag.  A few will travel miles and THEN go through 1/4" of steel... Billy Dixon shot a Comanche off his horse over 3/4 of a mile away with a single shot .50-90 sharps.  Any modern deer rifle has much better ballistics than that.  A "modern" deer rifle is usually a design that was done in the late 1800s...  An M93 (designed in 1893) an M96 (designed in 1896) or an M98 (deigned in 1898) shooting any of the ammo they were designed for at the time will go through 1/4" steel plate and are capable, on a calm day in skilled hands, of hitting a man sized target at 1,000 yards and killing it and if it were to hit a man sized target at more than a mile away (an unlikely but not impossible shot) it would still kill it.  These were usually chambered in 7x57mm, 6.5x55mm or 8x57mm, respectively.  Cartridges and rifles that were designed in the 19th century.  Compared to those a .223 (5.56x45mm) in an AR15 is a very wimpy cartridge compared to any of those and it will probably penetrate 1/4" steel plate with ball ammo.  I know a .30-06 will go through 1/4 steel plate because I've seen it.  And that was with standard expanding hunting ammo.  It might make it through 1/2" steel plate with ball ammo.  And a .30-06 is nothing compared to a .378 Weatherby mag.  Either of these will outshoot an AR15 shooting .223s at any range.  An AR15 shooting standard .223s is one of the LEAST dangerous high powered rifles in existence.

Besides death by all rifles (not limited to "Assault rifles") in 2015 (the latest collected and collated data) was 252.  Death by automobiles in 2015 was 38,300.  Let's get things in perspective.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2011-2015.xls
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/02/18/467230965/2015-traffic-fatalities-rose-by-largest-percent-in-50-years-safety-group-says
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2017, 12:23:33 pm »
gww wrote:

Dallas
Quote
Our hero Obama changed that to some degree, particularly on college campuses, where the allegation of sexual misconduct was tantamount to conviction.  The accused had no rights and the accuser could not be questioned.  I'm a lawyer by training and this garbage stinks.  Faculty on university campuses became the judges and jurors.  Why were these cases not turned over to the local police and courts, where due process applied.  I don't buy in to everything Trump is doing, but that's being corrected now, at least. 

But the trump administration has reinstated seisure laws where your stuff can be taken buy police as judge and jury with not court or defence involved.  Obama had stoped that practice.  How about laws that want to take your house because you rented it to some one and did not kick them out on just allegations that they were doing wrong making a private citizen into doing the polices job.  For every one good thing that any of the do they do two bad things.  In principle the siezure thing is the same as the rule change on campuses.
Cheers
gww


gww,

Seizure laws are truly an abomination the way they are employed.  They were designed to combat organized crime, mostly of the drug variety, but havr been perverted beyond recognition.  You get caught with a cache os cash while on your way to buy an antique car in another state for example, and the police seize it.  It's up to you to sue at great expense to recover your money and you can't recover the cost even if you win the case.  That's not justice.  Totally agree with you.

Gar
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2017, 12:28:13 pm »
Ace,

Can you prove you are not a criminal or a psycho -- or a pervert?  How does one prove a negative, my friend!

Ohy vay, you are a lawyer?  Record of convictions, psychological testing, record or convictions.  If something changed after licensing you lose your license.  Kind of like driving a car.

Yes, I am a retired lawyer, oviously, or I would not have been prosecuting criminals and defending accused people (some of whom were, in fact, criminals).

I don't understand your reference to licensing.  What's your point?
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2017, 12:42:41 pm »
Michael, I disagree with you about black powder not being fun to shoot.  It's slow to reload a black powder rifle, but the skill required to hit the target is the same as with any other firearm, and the comeraderie may exceed that one finds in other shooting sports.  You may be competing with the other shooters, but it's done in a good-natured way.

I'll agree it's a lot of fun to throw a pound of lead downrange in a minute, but not necessarily more fun than putting a little round ball on a gong every ten minutes.  The most impressive gun I ever shot was an American 180, a .22 caliber submachine gun that fired something like 1800 rounds a minute.  Sure wish I had bought one back about 1974 or so.  They are now worth more than $20k on the collector's market.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Acebird

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2017, 08:25:02 am »
I don't understand your reference to licensing.  What's your point?

You can get a license to drive a car but your record of convictions will determine if you keep it.
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Offline GSF

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2017, 01:00:39 pm »
If the long term goal is to confiscate guns and keep them, then start out by taking them up and giving them back.

Taking away people's only means of protection is stupid or border line evil. An 80 year old great grandma with a pistol in her hand can take on any unarmed young buffed thug. This world is a very evil place and it ain't getting no better. People now a days don't recognize right and wrong. For me not having a gun on me at all times (to include going to church) is totally irresponsible. That's where society is at today. I'm not being hateful, mean, or ignorant.

When the law no longer protects you from the corrupt, but protects the corrupt from you - then you know your nation is doomed.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2017, 01:46:07 pm »
If the long term goal is to confiscate guns and keep them,
This line of reasoning makes me laugh.  IF the GOVERNMENT wanted to take your guns how long would it take?
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Offline iddee

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2017, 02:53:07 pm »
Forever, as even the national guard and military reserves would rebel.
That's why they are trying to do it piecemeal. They know one swoop will only get politicians killed.
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Offline paus

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Re: Virgin Islands Nat'l Guard to seize guns/ammo ahead of Irma
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2017, 02:53:58 pm »
The Nazi never did get all of the guns any where in Europe and neither did the British get all of the MINUTE MEN,s guns  or other freedom lovers.  If these Governments had got all the guns we would not be writing freely, and this language as we are now.  Small point but certainly illuminates a much broader point.